WEBVTT

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[EMILY MUSZYNSKI]: Okay, if each of you could just state and spell your first and last names.

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[BADRI TAPARIA]: It’s Badri B A D R I and last name is Taparia T A P A R I A.

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[PRAMILA TAPARIA]: Pramila P R A M I L A. Last name is Taparia.

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[EM]: Alright, and what languages did you seak growing up?

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[BT]: We had a local language. As India has about 28 states so each state, like America has 50 states, each state still has his own vernacular dialect. Or you can call it, maturely, language. So that one, regional language, then national language is Hindi H I N D I. And English is taught in the school. So all the studies are done in all the three languages: State, national, and the world, English. 
[EM]: Okay--
[BT]: So we grew up with those languages.

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[EM]: Alright and did you both speak the same local dialect?
[PT]: Yeah 
[EM]: Okay...and so in India when and where were you born and what did you grow up in the same area where did you grow up in a different region?

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[BT]: No it was different. I was born in a western state called Rajasthan R A J A S T A N, which is the land of warriors. It's very deserty, like Arizona without much mountains. Pramila, my spouse, was born and raised in West Bengal, which is the eastern part of India. It adjust into--Bangla--today it’s Bangladesh. So we were two opposite ends, like New York-San Francisco-- 
[PT]: East and West
[BT]: East and West
[PT]: I was from East and he was from West.
[BT]: She’s like from New York and I’m from San Francisco.

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[EM]: Okay, and so where did you each go to school in India?

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[BT]: See, I migrated from western India--like I said, LA--towards New York towards where she would be living in West Bengal, called--city called Calcutta.  And I moved there in search of higher academics, higher studies, because in my state the education was sort of behind to the national level. So if you can afford to travel to distance where are there are universities, better scope for getting education. So I moved towards Pramila’s state.
[EM]: Okay...
[BT]: Not knowing her!

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[EM]: Okay *laughing*. And so Mrs. Taparia, where did you go to school in India? 
[PT]: The same place I was born. 
[EM]: Okay 
[PT]: In West Bengal.
[BT]: The city and town known as Malda M A L D A

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[EM]: And what religion did each of your families practice in India?
[BT]: It’s more a broad range of Hindu philosophy
[EM]: Okay...and what did each of your parents do for a living in India?

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[PT]: My father was a farmer, and...in business, you know, do family and everything, especially mango--mango farming.
[EM]: Okay
[PT]: So we had lots of land in West Bengal. We had rice meals and so many others, things over there. 
[BT]: Mustard oil mills 
[PT]: Yeah, everything 
[BT]: Jute mills, and--
[PT]: Everything was based in West Bengal 
[EM]: Okay 
[PT]: So, basically, that’s what was that
[EM]: Alright and so the farm was kind of a family business?
[PT]: Family business, but then there is a rice mill, you know, then the jute mill. So everybody was taking care of certain things. But the farming wa svery very big. Mango farming, rice farming, all these things, were very big. Lots of land.
[EM]: Yes! *laughs*

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[BT]: Yeah, my dad got educated for law. So during the British colonialism, he got accepted into law school in town named Allahabad A L L A H A B A D. So he graduated in law and then he came back to his hometown and become--down the road he become a judge, after India's independence. Judge of the High Court, he became a high court judge.

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[EM]: And did you have any siblings, brothers or sisters, in India? And were they older or younger than you?

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[PT]: Yes, I am the youngest one. So, there is five more older than I am. We are four sisters and two brothers.
[EM]: Okay 
[PT]: And I'm the young of all. So everybody's in India. 
[EM]: Okay and what are their names? 
[PT]: There were--the sister's named Radha R A D H A, the older sister. Second sister's Menka M E N K A. Third sister is Sushila S U S H I L A and I'm Pramila. And one older brother is Lilathar L I L A D H A R,  and another older brother is Vishnu V I S H N U. 

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[BT]: We are four brothers and two sisters. Between my older brother, who is 11 years older, still living, 86 years old, his name is R A M E S H W A R. And my name is Badri. In between two of us, we have two sisters Mohini M O H I N I and Sohini S O H I N I. And then two younger brothers Dwarka D W A R K, and the last one is Jagdish J A G D I S H. 

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[EM]: Okay, and so what was your life like in India? I guess in any way that you can--I know that’s kind of an awkward question but I guess how would you explain what life is like for you in India?

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[PT]: For me...I was born and brought up in a joint family. My brother's they were fi--my father, they were five brothers and one sister. So we had a big, big house and all of us lived in the same house, so--and it's it was a small-town, open land. Lots of land to play on the farm and everything, school. And lots of cousins so, growing up was--I don't know how, I cannot explain it in the words, but it was a lot of fun time. Lot of family time, lot of...happy, happy family times.

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[EM]: Okay, always somebody to play with, always someone to talk to and see it, sounds like?
[PT]: Right, sounds like. And always somebody’s going, somebody’s coming and things like this. We didn’t have to look for...outside friends. I mean we had friends, but we didn't have to search to play with them.  We had enough activities within our own selves, but we didn't have any TV or radio those days.  We just went out, went to school, came home and ate something and went to the park to play, football or learning bicycle. There's so many different kind of games I even forgot the names. *Laugh* 
[BT]: Swimming
[PT]: Swimming, yes. Swimming, of course. The river was there. So we all learned swimming in the river, our own! So, it was very happy childhood I have--very, very happy. 

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[EM]: And how would you explain your-- 
[BT]: See, like I was born in 1942 and India got independent in 1947. So I have no recollection until then, until I was 8 years old.  So our state is--is very adjacent to Pakistan. So India and Pakistan were divided in 1947 on a religion basis. Muslims vs. Hindus. So our state being adjacent to Pakistan border and being a desert town, soon after independence of these two countries, they--The fights or quarrels, you may call, led to war between these two countries on a piece of land called, Kashmir. Which the Britishers left it, to figure out, on those two newly-independent countries. That “you figure out...” And it's still today, after 68 years of independence, that land has still not gone either side and the fighting continues. 

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So, because bodering state, we were more in a defense, protecting from Pakistan. When you have India *gesturing* and Pakistan, and I'm here-- So the education was sort of left out by the government. Education, health. Because all the money was going in defense and agriculture. You need food. So it was hard to find jobs over in my land. As my father's return comes to retirement, so we moved to Calcutta 1,500 miles eastward, in search of employment and education as well. 

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So I grew up most of my life in Calcutta, knowing the regional languages called Bengali. And...being,  studying in English--regional and national. So our parents, because they were educated, and my father stressed on education, because he was educated by the Britishers, so education our main aim. So I wasn't not too much in games, just routine. They're called physical education, but studies were mostly our aim. And as I became undergrad, then I selected medicine. 

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And as I become a doctor and many fellow of my undergrad classmates went into engineering, some went into pharmacy, some went into teaching, and went in medicine, and I got educated being a doctor. Hoping that I'll go to UK, England because British brought English in India, and they taught everything in English. So we were really primed with the education to go to UK for higher postgraduate education. So that was my aim. 

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So growing up in India those days as India was newly independent country and they still figuring it out which way they want to go, Prime Minister Nehru he was the first prime minister--still there, almost eighteen years--he brought some education, time to deal with the development of the country, at the same time has to fight with a neighboring countries. It was a mess! When you are newly independent and then you’re to fight with your neighbors, your resources are all gone into priorities. So, food was available but on a scarcity basis. It wasn't plentiful. There was a--so food was rationed. Healthcare was rationed. So everything was in a developmental stage: the roads, the rails, the airplanes, education, health system. And you can just see, a newly born country, what will face it. So I was in that juncture of a newly independent country from ’47. And as I graduated medical doctorate in ’65, it still was catching up the development. 

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[EM]: And so when did you come to the United States?

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[BT]: I came in ’66, fifty years ago. As I passed, we got married in ’65 and I graduated medicine ’65.  And because of all this infrastructure was still embryonic, or you an call it primitive... So we were ready to go to UK, but then there was--as the Britain, colonized a lot of nation in the world, and all the countries along with India--Ghana, you know, many African countries, were getting their independence of them. And all those countries, used to call commonwealth countries, like Canada, Austrialia, and New Zeland, along with the Asian and African countries--so all those under the British, knowing English, were migrating to British Isles, like England, Scotland, Ireland, wherever they can find a better employment or opportunity. And like I said, we are equipped with the English medium. We coulnd’t go to Russia. We couldn’t go to Japan. We could not go to China. So English being a sort of blessing what the British brought to India. 

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[EM]: So then why--why did, why did you choose the United States or what brought you to the United States?

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[BT]: Okay, so that--so I was preparing to go to the UK, and as there’s an exodus of people from different countries going to British Isles, so they were--Before they open then they slow down their migration policy and I got caught into a waiting list of two years to qualify to come--enter into the UK. At that moment the USA open the floodgates. Why? Because America that time, you know like in 1950s, just got over the Korean War and then got into another mess with the Vietnam War, and they were needing engineers, mathematicians, teachers, aerospace, doctors, everything! 

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Because America--If you see, the World War II finished by 1947--’42 to ’47. So Russia became a superpower on the other side and America become a superpower on this side. Their both philosophies were different: one of the democratic and one was communist. So even though World War II was over, but these two superpowers were still playing games in the world. So like why we had a Korean War, why we had the Vietnam War continues to hold the communist influence--Russia’s and China’s--over the South Asian countries. But the Americans--and everybody but the two superpowers-- One superpower doing a tyranny to other countries, and they were looking help from the other the country, the superpower, was USA. 

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So USA did not have much intellectual people. They had a bomb. Harry Truman threw it, and it stopped the World War II, but there was a secret of the bomb, but then when you have a war going on, you need the war machinery to be constructed. So those days every city in America, like Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio, they’re putting out steel rubber for tanks, helicopters, planes, everything! You see, so they needed more intellectuals. And so we got open--they got opened up. Before, the migration to America was only a hundred from India till 1964.

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So in ’65 as they opened it, I slipped in in ’66
[EM]: Okay
[BT]: to come to America.
[EM]: And so you came in as a doctor--
[BT]: Yeah as a doctor. Because they had a closed policy before
[EM]: Yeah, yeah. So so did you come directly to Chicago or did you live anywhere beforehand?
[BT]: No, I came to Philadelphia. I came to Philadelphia. The city of brotherly love. I hardly knew any city outside the big name cities--New York, Philadelphia, Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA, San Francisco. I never knew Florida, Miami, or Houston or Dallas.
[EM]: *laughs*
[BT]: *laughing* those days. So, I start to apply in the hospitals, and I had very cordial responses from many hospitals, but I chose Philadelphia, being closer to New York City because of the main hub of all the migrants coming from all over the world. So, Philadelphia--not too far. So I got in there at the Saint Anthony's Hospital as an intern.

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[EM]: Okay and at this point was it just the two of you?

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[PT]: Yeah--no, a little later
[BT]: No, when I left--Yeah I was newly married, but I did not have a passage to pay. It was $650 those days in 1966. So I asked the hospital if they will advance me some money and send me a air ticket and then deduct from my stipend, each month. So I could not afford, even my newly married--my wife--to bring along with me. So I started to pay my debt of my air ticket, started to save some money, then after 3-4 months, I call my wife to come over. So, it was the money crunch!

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[EM]: Yeah and so what were your expectations when you came into the United States or did you have any? *laughs*

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[PT]: I didn’t, I didn’t have--I didn’t know what I’m getting into--
[BT]: She had no, clue!
[EM]: Okay!
*all laugh*
[BT]: No clue really. All she knew is me. “I’m going to join my husband and we’re going to make a life.
[PT]: I--I just, I moved from a very small town. The biggest city I moved to after my getting married is Calcutta. And from Calcutta, straight here. So...
[BT]: And she was 18 years old.
[EM]: Okay
[BT]: High school graduate
[PT]: Yeah. So I didn't know what to expect, but...I don't know, I cannot. It’s as I said the expectation was not there, but I was yeah, I was definitely...scared...within myself. Not knowing how to speak in English. 
[EM]: Okay

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[PT]: That was the biggest--I mean had a subject as English in school, but then the medium--medium language was Bengali. So I studied in Bengali, Hinidi was the mother language, and the national language was as we said. But not knowing English--I mean I know English but I didn't know how to speak from *laughs* here.
[BT]: Yeah
[PT]: So was a scary thought. And what people are saying, how to behave. I'll be--I used to be very quiet and not answer, even though I understood, but like something was stuck here. *laughing* Not coming out. 

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[EM]: Oh. So did you, I mean did you take any language courses? Or--
[PT]: No, no!
[EM]: was there any institution that kind of helped you adjust to life in America?

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[PT]: The TV did. 
[BT]: Sesame Street
[PT]: Not Sesame Street. Not Sesame Street, no. 
[EM]: *laughs*
[PT]: It was the nicest shows those days come on. I Love Lucy and MASH and so many other little, little shows that they don’t have--
[BT]: FBI
[PT]: Not FBI, some very funny, nice half an hour shows. During the day, I used to watch it and speak and then slowly, slowly, started to speak. I didn't take any classes at that time, no.

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[EM]: Okay, and so when did you come--you were in Philadelphia, so when did you come to Chicago or to this area? Was there anything in between?

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[BT]: For the Philadelphia, I had five years. And when I had my full training as an OBGYNy, and then in order to take a board certification-- So after residency, you had to have two years of practice. So then I practiced in Syracuse, New York at SUNY S U N Y and taught simultaneously. And as New York was kind of colder-- The Loyola in Chicago in 1972 just got a land from Heinz in Maywood. And they started the medical and dental school. And they were needing faculty to teach. So as I saw their, what you call a...distressful advertise for job, and as soon as I called, they said, “When can you come here?” 

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So being a new land and those days there was a part of-- you can, with the brown skin like Indians, I could only see black and white races here. There was no Asian. Latino was not discovered yet. 
[PT]: Yeah
[BT]: So you could smell a little bit of biasedness or discrimination. And being India and Pakistan were fighting and America was aiding both the countries--one with the weapons and one, to India, with the food. So people have a different attitude...over the Indians. So I was looking when--when the distressful call come from Loyola, “We need faculty people here! When can you come?” ... Even the chairman told me, “When can you get your ass here?” *all laugh* 
[EM]: Wow!
[BT]: And he sent me $1000 for moving expenses, right in the telegraphic, and I moved! To teach at Loyola. So this is how we moved to Chicago.

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[EM]: Alright, and so I guess when you're looking at--you mentioned that you were really nervous coming to the states. What did you miss most when you first came here, what did you miss most about home and India?

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[BT]: Well you know there was--we were, we did not come to establish and live forever. Our main aim was to get extra postgraduate trained. Because India did not offer much, as specialty training. They give you a basic medical, some basic specialty training. But they were all taught by Britishers those days, and America wasn't discovered. So I was going to America because, not knowing at all--In other words, the British when they ruled India for 200 years, so lot of Indians used to go to UK, used to come back. So people had an idea what UK is like, what Britishers are like. But nobody went to USA who came back to tell us, “The USA is great.” 

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But I came here without knowing. That's all I need to do is get trained and I had an initial visa for five years, and for my training and I was going to come back to India. I had no plan to remain here forever. 
[EM]: Okay, alright. So you came here not intending to stay, evidently.
[BT]: Not at all. Because, see my parents were alive. Her parents were alive. We have a full 
[PT]: Family
[BT]: family in the back home. So we were missing not my, my country, my family! None of my family members were here...none! So we were looking for love and acceptance, to get trained and just go back quickly as soon as you can. So I could not revisit back to India five years, at all. I had no money. In the training, you don't get much; an internal residential, you don't get much. You can live by. You can do some moonlighting to live on. And then you start to have children, and start to have family. And my two kids came out. First older son, then after four of his birthdays, we get another son. 

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[EM]: Okay, and when were they--when were they born?

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[BT]: They were born in--the oldest, ’69--
[PT]: He was born in Philadelphia
[EM]: In Philadelphia, okay
[BT]: and ’73 the second one in Chicago, and ’75 daughter born in Chicago, both at Loyola. 
[EM]: Okay
[PT]: Yeah 

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[EM]: Alright. And have they been able to go back and visit your family in India?
[BT]: Yeah
[PT]: Oh yeah, oh yeah. They have been to...

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[EM]: And so--were you nervous? I guess having--now that you had children in the United States, were you nervous about at all about raising them in the United States or how did it--how did you feel about raising children here?

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[PT]: I was nervous a little bit, yes, that they would not learn what we have here. Whatever I knew we taught them, both of us.  But still, there’s a major part of the values also back home. So I was nervous about it. And then what kind of life partner they're going to get; that was another worry when they were growing up here, and about education, everything! But slowly, slowly I think we got integrated in the whole thing. And the childrens are well-educated, and they found nice partners in their lives. Two of them are Indian and one of them is American, but is a nice, very nice girl.
[EM]: *laughing* Okay 
[PT]: Yeah and--I mean, I didn’t have a prob--but now I don't have any problem. But there was a time, yes, when they were growing up-- “Are they going to get into some kind of a bad habits? Are they going to get into some kind of a--not study properly? Bad group?” I mean so many things you worry about.

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[EM]: What was your social network like at that time? Did you have--were you able to meet a community, or...?

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[PT]: I don’t think when we were in--we were, we don’t have, I didn’t have that much of a, big of a community at that time. Brief--I think we had very few people... Indian people in Philadelphia. Then Syracuse--I mean, I don't think we had a community. Today we see more community than those days. 
[EM]: Okay 
[BT]: See the--In sixties and early part of seventies, the migration of Indians were still very miniscule. And those days, the only cream of the crop from India, with a good, solid financial support, they could migrate. They could could come to higher studies. So, and those who studied earlier and sixties and seventies, and we tried to go back, because of the fearing the children, we are not very much being accepted. So we knew, we're not going to be here. 

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And so we needed some money to save and go back. Now, imagine you are staying in a developed country and going back to developing country, where infrastructures are not still ready to receive you with your background. There was no comparable jobs in India! As there were comparable jobs in America. 
[EM]: Alright
[BT]: I could find--I could apply, and which I did, seven places. Four places sent me the air ticket to come and visit them. And I thought if I don't have to accept a job, I might as well go and visit them, and see the country *laughing*, and not buy the ticket. So it was so much a, what you call, hunger in people of a trained background in America. 

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So going back to India, emotionally, back of your mind was...daunting, in a way. But then being in India and being distressed by unemployment there versus readily employed in America. What would you choose? 
[EM]: Yeah...so-- 
[BT]: So this is why we have to be here!

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[EM]: Yeah, so was there anyone, in those early years here in the States, was there anyone who--here in the United States--who was, supported you, or gave you any sort of help, or...?

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[BT]: Actually, we needed--In the beginning, when I was an intern and resident, I got lots of love, because those days the Catholic America--it was predominantly Catholic--and their values and Hindu values a pretty much parallel. Family-wise, emotion-wise, helping-wise. And we were really well-received by church groups, by the people, even though we look brownie. There was no discrimination in a religious basis.
[EM]: Okay
[BT]: But as you got--because of your trained background, when you’re a board certified OBGYN, every city in America needed doctors, specialized doctors those days. So we had a more readily...a gracefulness because of our background. 

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Anybody would’ve accepted us, in spite of we don't belong to their religion, or they're practicing habits, or culture. So wherever we can go, people will embrace us with open arms. Because you could be helpful for our community, delivering babies, doing this, doing that...or any, any specialty. You see?
[EM]: Okay 
[BT]: Like, Rockford was difficulty to get the doctors over there. Even though one time Rockford was the second largest after Chicago
[EM]: Yeah!
[BT]: But everybody wants to stay near Chicago, unless you have a family in the Rockford.
[EM]: Yeah
[BT]: Then you will choose Rockford versus Chicago.

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[EM]: Okay, and so at the time then, you were working a lot, and raising children, how did you spend your leisure time? What did you do for fun? *laughs*

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[BT]: Well actually, there was no fun in the sense, because our food habit was being a vegetarian. So we wanted Indian type of food with more masala, spices, and that kind of thing. There were very few Indian families whom we ever came in contact with. So we used to meet for their birthdays, or children birthdays, for the weekend.
[EM]: Okay
[BT]: So it was like, you know, living a weekend in India, with Indian communities, people. Very few. And living in America for five days 
[PT]: *laughs*
[BT]: on the work job.
[EM]: Oh, wow. Okay.

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[BT]: So besides that, we were longing for Indian movies. There was no high-tech things over there. So International House in University of Chicago, IIT in Chicago, they used to hold a special movie time. Because of the large Indian students who came to IIT, Illinois Institute of Technology. So they had a large number, a herd, of students who were doing post-graduation in engineering. So we could meet with them and because they were celebrating some of our Christmas-like, called Diwali, or Holi, and Indian Independence Day, and then American Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the New Year’s. So we had both of the worlds in the student dormitories at IIT. So we were joining with them, for pastimes. 

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Otherwise there was no time left, because once you have a--young children, you are busy on the five days of the week, and the weekends you are...The weekend you want to catch up with the laundry, groceries, cleaning. There’s much of errands left.
[EM]: Yeah!
[BT]: And, on the top of that, we had some now savings, but to call into India was not that easy. We had to book a phone call to overseas, via London or via Sydney, Australia, and you had to...shout on the top of your voice to the other end to say, “Hello”! And they won't give us more than three minutes. 

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[EM]: Oh my, so it was a blessing as technology evolved--
[BT]: Yeah.
[EM]: Have you been able to--
[BT]: Through today’s technology we are so closer to India. We can do a FaceTime. We can talk. And it’s so cheap!
[PT]: Yeah
[BT]: It’s virtually...cost nothing on the FaceTime 
[EM]: Well, yeah! yeah... 
[BT]: Those days we had to pay $10 per minute 
[EM]: Oh my...
[BT]: And then, you know, one minute was just passed by saying, “Hello, hello? Can you hear me?” And then, you know, “We are alright,” they’re okay. That's about it, and three minutes are over.
[PT]: It was difficult, uh...
[BT]: Missing home was difficult!
[PT]: Missing home was difficult those days. I mean not--and you cannot, we didn’t go to India that often either. Um, children so young and plus, whenever I'm pregnant, we didn't travel.
[EM]: Mhmm
[PT]: So, it was hard.

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[EM]: Did any of your family members also come to the States later, or...?

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[PT]: Later on, my sister’s family 
[BT]: Yeah, I--I called my brother, even after a year. I took a loan to pay for his postgraduate at Drexel. And my second brother, the youngest brother, I took a loan for him to send him to UPenn, being in Philadelphia. So I was fully loaded with the loans. So we had to pay back the loans, as we started to earn money in my practicing time, raising my families. So there was nothing much left for recreation, you know, traveling.
[EM]: Yeah
[BT]: To travel means lot of money. And those days, there were not too many airlines, and because of not too many airlines, the cost of a ticket was very competitive--non-competitive. Whatever they charge, you had to pay. Today we have a competitive. And you can go online and can see what is the cheapest price, who's offering it. We didn't have that luxury those days. [PT]: We just traveled within America. I think we took most of the time we were driving.

00:41:36.700 --> 00:41:48.800
[EM]: Okay, so did you get to see a lot? In you're driving trips did you see a lot of the country? Or did you stay in the Midwest?
[PT]: Just close by, if it was close by, you know, just big cities. Or Niagara Falls, things like that *laughs*

00:41:48.800 --> 00:42:05.800
[EM]: Okay, alright. And so, we’ve kind of touched on it a little bit, but what--what was it like trying to form friendships in the United States? Or forming relationships with maybe American co-workers or neighbors?

00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:44.900
[BT]: It was non-existent. See people are--professionally, you are with the American people professionally in the hospital. That's about it. But there was no follow-up in parties. People were kind of hesitant because our food practices were different. We will not eat meat. We will not drink. And neither, they can have spices, spicy food. So except--and we were very, very happy with our family. And other people were not that much interested to know you more. 

00:42:47.100 --> 00:42:55.400
[EM]: And so, while he was working, were you also working? Or what did you do while he was practicing and while you had the children in the home?

00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:37.400
[PT]: While I had the children, the time went to the children. Once the children started to go to school, let’s say, from 8 to 3, I used to go to his office and help him out in the practice.
[EM]: Okay
[PT]: Just take care of the paperwork or insurance or whatever.
[EM]: Okay 
[PT]: So, from that time on, I started to work and--and when the kids were on their own, I was most of the time in his--I mean, morning to evening, 9 to 5, in the office. Come home for lunch though because we always lived close to the office and the hospital, where he did his speciality.

00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:45.800 
[EM]: Okay and so how many, how many different hospitals have you worked in, and what--what are you currently doing?

00:43:46.000 --> 00:44:28.100
[BT]: I’m retired now just do charity, as a consultant basis. But you can’t get more involved with the patient because of the liability insurance. So that thing is not a option even though we are retired, you could be very helpful to the community, but being in medicine you need a proper, what you call, malpractice insurance. So that prohibts us from doing more. ...Even if you want to do more, you can’t do it.

00:44:28.100 --> 00:44:46.300
[EM]: Okay, yeah. And--so how many, before retirement, how many hospitals? You worked in Philadelphia and Chicago. 
[BT]: Yeah, but maybe two hospitals here
[EM]: Okay
[PT]: Philadelphia was the training mostly, it was.
[BT]: Training ground
[PT]: For residency and internship
[BT]: But Chicago it was two hospitals, mostly.

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:58.500
[EM]: Okay. And then did you through the process to become US citizens?
[PT]: Yes
[BT]: Mhmm
[EM]: And what prompted you to do that? What made you decide to gain citizenship?

00:44:58.500 --> 00:45:37.700
[BT]: Well, the major thing was, initially I was going to leave Illinois and going to go to Texas or Oklahoma some other southwest state, because the liability insurance was affordable. Illinois wasn't and it's still not. So then came to the question of going to Indiana, which I did... So then what was the question is?

00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:44.200
[EM]: Oh, so what made you, or what prompted you or what made you decide to go ahead and get the US citizenship?

00:45:44.200 --> 00:46:38.600
[EM]: Yeah! So at that moment, when the childrens were coming closer to high school and we even tried two times to go back to India. I folded my practice. We tried first time when the childrens were all below fourteen, of age, fourteen years. And we were not accepted in India. Beside that, because there was hostility from a foreign-trained physician coming back to India, and encroaching upon the local people, because the foreign-trained pers--physicians will do better than the domestically-trained. So it was a problem of turf and finance. 

00:46:40.000 --> 00:47:47.400
Second discouragement was that India, even till ’85, had only three kinds of cars available, three kinds. Today what cars you have in America you can get in India. Those days you only had three kind! Getting a telephone line was a hassle. Getting a proper electric power was a hassle. Water--So all those civic things required for a living what still not appropriate. So you had to be a hustler on the juggler to live on for a while. So, second time I still give a benefit of a doubt that maybe India has changed, but it wasn’t. So, coming closer to eighties we decided, “Forget it. This is not going to happen. We’re going to make up our mind, and we just cannot be emotionally blackmailed by the home country.”

00:47:48.600 --> 00:48:41.000
Because our relatives saying in the one side, “Come, come, come. There will be a lot of good things. We are all around here.” But when the reality comes to work with the government, and as the corruption start to build in India, things were no conducive. Because once you live America, where things are done on a proper, basis non-corrupted basis. You apply, you get reply. In India, things don’t move. Getting a passport it takes 6 months!
[EM]: Oh my
[BT]: And that is the smallest time period, if you can bribe under the table to expedite your interviews and other things and checklists. In America today they know your identity. They can issue it same day, you pay extra. That's about it. 

00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.700
[EM]: Yeah, so in some ways it was just easier to get that citizenship
[BT]: Easier! Things are moving here

00:48:46.700 --> 00:49:32.200
[PT]: But then second thing, childrens are growing here.
[BT]: Yeah in the meantime, the kids are growing
[PT]: They are going to school, college
[BT]: They are getting Americanized, in a way
[PT]: They got into good colleges. They are studying. There’s no point for us to go back and, you know, taking their lively with us and let them adjust over there. Because we knew how hard we had it, we didn't want them to go through this back home because they will--they’re totally American. They have all been born here.
[EM]: Yeah
[PT]: For them it’s going to be a brand new country that they’re going back.  So we tried, it didn't work out, and then finded our mind was set.

00:49:32.700 --> 00:50:25.500
[BT]: And then, there’s another thing I want to add. In late seventies and early eighties, during the Reaganomics, Reagan period, he opened up the immigration from India to a higher-level. So lots of Indians came. Professional Indians and then the students. And today students are coming 86,000, neck-and-neck with Chinese, every year. And out of that 50% doesn't want to go back. So now we have almost three million plus Indians in America. So much so, that there is no point of going to India! *PT and EM laugh* We have a little India here! 

00:50:25.500 --> 00:51:14.800
Now you could go to Devon Street, in northside of India. [he means Chicago]
[EM]: Okay, yeah...
[BT]: It’s a total India for two miles of it. We have movie theaters. We have temples here, and in enormous numbers. You name it. We have more facilities here which is more easy to get. Indian groceries, Indian vegitables, anything you name! With so much of Indian diaspora, even the latecomers, after fifty years of me coming, they don’t want to go back to India. Because India is now so populous that they have to hassle right in their own homeland. And there's no hassle factor here.

00:51:14.800 --> 00:52:33.600
[EM]: And they have a little India right here, so...
[BT]: Right here! So, they love it. So what India we got fifty years ago--no what America we got fifty years ago, was a discouraging factor for us. Take your degree, make yourself.
[PT]: Go back
[BT]: And go back. Because our family was alive. Our parents were there. Now, we have grown up ourselves here, the new wave of immigrants are so much, we feel at home now. 
[EM]: Yeah 
[BT]: There's no point! If you asked me India, go to go to visit, now India is so rich, over the fifty years. But the rich and the development happened when those immigrants come to America. They gave back, especially engineering and IT sectors. Not in medicine, but so much they did IT--So if you look at Bay Area, Silicon Valley, San Francisco, it’s all Indian.
[PT]: They gave back. They gave back so much to India.
[BT]: So India is now so well developed and well connected, that you--and with those, you know, FaceTime, like you were saying
[EM]: Yeah
[BT]: there’s no distance left.

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:54.400
[EM]: So when the--when a lot more people started coming from India, did you notice any changes in attitude towards you in your work life, or--I guess at what point did you notice there was kind of a difference in the view of Americans of the Indian community as more came in? Or do you think there was a difference?

00:52:54.400 --> 00:53:44.300
[BT]: Well, at the same time, American was changing, super fast! When I came, in America, there were either black--they were used to call “Negroes”--and nobody would mind it. Or the whites, with all the European descent in America. So in the last--As soon as the Vietnam War was over in ’75, there was a lot of American Asians, they--and as the war continues, we used to live, we used to...loss 3-4,000American soldiers in Vietnam War, daily! 

00:53:45.900 --> 00:54:32.500
There was a vacuum! Those kids, the draft, military draft was compulsory! If you are below 26, you have to be drafted. Cassius Clay, he was drafted. He went to Canada. He changed his religion to Muslim and he say, “Well, on consciousness of religion, I'm not going to go and fight.” So everybody was looking a way to get out of the draft. So here, look, as America was losing as a superpower their own children, so their immigration becomes a big thing. People from all over the world can to start to come here.

00:54:34.500 --> 00:55:22.000
So the whole landscape changed. Today if you look at both the coasts, east and west coast, you go to San Francisco, you will not find a Caucasian as much. Chinese, Hawaiianm, Indian, and Mexican, or Spanish. You go to Miami you’ll find more Cuban origin. You go down to Rio Grande Valley in Mexico and Texas border, you will find all the Mexicans. The true, old white American you call, like you yourself, is in Midwest. Nowhere! But if you go, you'll be a minority on that coastal region. On the border areas.

00:55:22.700 --> 00:55:43.200
[EM]: So I guess, kind of looking forward, if you were going--wanted future generations to know something about Indian immigrants in the Chicago area, or even just in the country, what--What do you think it's important for future generations to know about Indian immigrants to this area?

00:55:43.200 --> 00:56:48.900
[BT]: Well actually, you know, the history repeat by itself.  If I conjecture your grandparents, wherever they came from, German, Irish, or French, they could not go back, because the Europe had no jobs for them. They left the country, the Europe because of the atrocities by the monarchs, or the religion basis. They want a free land! So this is how they came, as the early settlers. And they married each other. It’s the same history repeating with the Chinese, or with the Indians, or people coming from Southeast region, Asia, or Middle East. They're all looking America to come, because the Constitution of America says, most liberty--whatever you can say, passion--compassion, and welcome, and freedom. There’s no country in the world which offers that. 

00:56:48.900 --> 00:57:46.300
Russia, you can’t. You look at the fiasco happening in Middle East with the Syrian migrants going through the Turkey to, all the way to Europe. They cannot go towards the Japan or China! Look at the European countries in the European descendants who come to America or Canada, they are the most embracing people. So the human migration goes wherever you find love and some food. And the history goes back to with the red Indians, when the Britishers came here--Why do they have Thanksgiving? Because they were happy to survive during those days when the Indian help them with maize, and they found the turkey, and they said, “Thanks to the abundance here, we can do it.” They couldn’t go back, with all those Mayflower ships they come from. They can’t go back.

00:57:47.300 --> 00:58:39.200
So they have to adopt the land they discovered after so many months of traveling in the rough seas. So this is a human--it’s the story of human migration. Why would we migrate? If we would have been rich, India? Why one time, in 1492, Columbus went in search of India, 
[EM]: Yeah! He made a little mistake there! *laughs*
[BT]: those are the people would have migrated--Yeah--So people were--loved to migrate to India those days, when India was so prosperous. So in the history, you know, British came up, the French came up, the Dutch people came up. And everybody's goes into ups and downs in the history. America still holds the highest level as a country.

00:58:39.200 --> 00:58:52.000
[EM]: Yeah. As for each of you, is there anything else that you want to add, or anything else you can think of that might--you think needs to be preserved, or needs to be kept as a part of your story?

00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:46.800
[PT]: I think preservation of your household is strong enough. Like, the values of the house, any home.
The husband, wife, the children, your values are strong, you can hold your--you can make yourself anywhere in the whole world. You can make yourself to--and those strong values of any home, any household, is more important today than ever been. I think so. That’s my feeling, because if the house is not properly--childrens are not raised properly. If their values--you have to be friends with the children, then you have to be friends with the neighbors, and everything. Then the community and house, everything is proper, and you can be a better person. 

00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:58.900
[EM]: Mhmm. So it sounds like you've--sounds and also just looks like you've definitely maintained your
[PT]: Yes
[EM]: Indian values and your heritage
[PT]: Indian values but I’m adapted to any nice ideas.

00:59:58.900 --> 01:00:40.000
Doesn’t matter which part of the country and which religion it comes from. That doesn't matter. But it doesn't have to be Indian. All the values are the same, if you read the books. But if it--if I forget, and you are giving me the nice ideas, yes. I'll take it. And if you can hold on to those certain values, whatever is from you, or from somebody else, or mine. And if you are keeping the--And children understands it, then they can do anything in this world. And they're not going to fall back.
[EM]: Yeah 

01:00:40.000 --> 01:01:40.400
[BT]: Where there’s parallels, you know, if you look at your own history of your forefathers, what made the--what make America strong? All the immigrants came from different part of the world. They brought their cultures. So then basically, all the cultures, way of life, you may call the religion are same. It’s just the way of living. But any subgroup becomes a little more populous, subgroup of immigrants. For example, when the Germans came, they brought beer. When the Dutch game they brought cheese. When the French came the brought wine. When the Italians came, they brought pizza. So now, today we are Yankee Doodle dandy
[EM]: *laughing* Yeah

01:01:40.400 --> 01:02:10.400 
[BT]: So Indians, down the road, in hundreds of years, everybody will be more Americanized with the Indian flavor, like masala, tikka--whatever they call--naan, roti bread. So it will be more pronounced, and it will be more amalgamated into the American cap. Like we have Halloween here
[EM]: Yeah

01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:22.600
[gap in recording - begin viewing photos together]
[PT]: This is the [inaudible] now
[EM]: Oh, okay. Is this at the wedding?
[BT]: It’s our fiftieth anniversary
[PT]: This is the fiftieth anniversary
[EM]: Oh okay!

01:02:23.900 --> 01:02:57.500
[PT]: This is my daughter and this is her husband. My older son. He has a girlfriend now, but at that time she wasn’t there, so
[EM]: *laughs*
[BT]: She’s a French American
[PT]: This is my second son, that his wife and two daughters.
[EM]: Oh okay
[PT]: So...[inaudible], became two of us...
[BT]: So, like, today we prefer to marry Indians, but we are open! Because, see in your time, when people could not go back to Germany or France or Britain or Ireland, they had to marry who’s available. 
[EM]: Yeah

01:02:57.500 --> 01:03:36.900
[PT]: But my second son’s wife, she was brought up in Botswana, Africa. She’s Indian. And highly-educated. She studied in London. She studied in Boston
[BT]: She was a Rhodes Scholar
[PT]: She was a Rhodes Scholar
[EM]: Oh my
[BT]: Like Bill Clinton!
[PT]: Yes. So she was in Oxford University in London. So, and see, he ended up meeting her in India when event for work to India and he ended up meeting. They liked each other, but we are from North India she is from South India. To me it doesn't matter. *laughs* As long as they are nice person. 

01:03:36.900 --> 01:04:07.400
He is from--originally from California. They are Punjabi, North Indian. And she met him in New York, and they're happy. And he just met his girlfriend and her name is Nicole. Nicole Temple. 
[EM]: Okay
[PT]: Yeah. So, they’re living together...
[BT]: In America, you know, everything merges, like we call it salad bowl. 
[EM]: Yes, yeah
[PT]: Yeah

01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:56.300
[BT]: So this is what it is. So we don’t have to preserve anything. I think if any specific diaspora, Indian, Chinese, you may call Cambodian, if they're fighting to preserve. What we are preserving?
[PT]: That’s the thing. I never understood what they are preserving.
[BT]: You know? 
[PT]: Your thought are--you preserve your thoughts 
[BT]: You should be--you should preserve to be more open
[PT]: Yeah
[BT]: Acceptance. Tolerance...for any kind. There should be no discrimination. Like, you see, if you go...just listen news, racial tension America is not solved yet.
[PT]: No, it’s not
[EM]: No, it’s been horrible

01:04:56.300 --> 01:05:26.200
[BT]: But if you go to South Africa, where the Dutch people lived there for 400 years and they had a monopoly. When Nelson Mandela was fighting apartheid, was jailed for 29 years, and now he became the president of the country. You know, first thing he said? “That all the whites and blacks are my brothers. We’re going to live in harmony.” And today they are living in harmony. 

01:05:26.200 --> 01:06:21.800
[PT]: Because they sat down and discussed, and they came to understanding. And now they're living together and now side-by-side and no problem. Here, we don’t see that
[BT]: Here the problem is we never accepted the
[PT]:  Yeah
[BT]: slavery and the subsequent fall out of it. 
[EM]: Yeah
[BT]: Like if you--the yesterday news about the pope visiting Auschwitz
[PT]: Yeah
[BT]: and praying there. For who? For Jews. Not for Germans. They were killing him five millions of them
[EM]: ...Yeah 
[BT]: So there is a reconciliation 
[EM]: Yes, and the government themsevles have done a lot 
[BT]: Yes!
[PT]: Yeah
[BT]: But here we haven’t reconciled.  We still hate people of colors, and yet they're contribute in Olympics. They contribute big time in games. 
[PT]: And this election year is not making it better

01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:33.500
[EM]: Have you seen--since you’ve been here for so long, have you seen any sort of--do you think that things have improved with the racial tensions in our country? Or do you think that--
[BT]: No, not at all
[EM]: it's been the same over those years?

01:06:33.500 --> 01:07:25.000
[PT]: Maybe, maybe people, they don't say it, but maybe they feel it more, I think.
[EM]: Okay 
[PT]: And what is this election year is all about, these... I mean, not to mention the fighting--yeah
[BT]: You know like they say, “This land is yours; this land is mine.” So leave everybody to happily... Like if you are come from a farming profession in the background, farmers used to have umpteen numbers of children. There was no Latino come to help there. Look at today, if you don't have Latinos or migraints from south of the border, California won’t survive, Texas won’t survive and we won't survive. Because who's going to take care of our landscaping, construction, the small jobs?

01:07:25.000 --> 01:08:11.100
[PT]: I have this guy’s working [the lawn equipment is audible in the background] who’s Latino.
[BT]: But they’re going to come up. They’re going to come up down the road. We came--I came to India--America with $8 in my pocket. And I had to borrow money.
[EM]: And work your way up, yeah
[BT]: Yeah, work it out
[PT]: Yeah
[BT]: So it’s the story of everybody. You know, we had to pay back. I had no passage tickets and all those, those, those. But, I still feel that I’m in my golden era, because I had a passion, determination to learn something. And I didn't care for cold or bad weather or distance from home, because I had a dream. And you leave with the dream. And now the world has become so small.

01:08:13.600 --> 01:08:18.900
[EM]: And do you feel the same way looking back on those orginal times? He said--he described that at his “golden age.” Did you--

01:08:18.900 --> 01:08:58.900
[PT]: It was a nice--I think we didn’t feel unsafe at that time. Let’s put it this way. I mean we didn't hear all the violence. Maybe there was. Maybe we didn’t know it that much, but yes, we didn’t have that kind of a news all the time. It was a golden years those days, yes. Today is also nice, you know, I'm not complaining about today's time also. But there's so much we--so much news, so much you hear, that your mind gets boggled, I guess.
[EM]: Yeah

01:08:58.900 --> 01:09:44.800
[BT]: Well you are studying history
[EM]: Yes, yeah
[BT]:  And if you look at the history the African blacks who are not--they didn't come on their own.
[PT]: No
[EM]: No...
[BT]: They were brought as slaves, as a service, as a supporting caste. But down the road, like Hillary says, in her convention speech, that everybody is welcome. We have to accept the fact that we have to live together now. Those days they were black, they were looked down upon, they have a different buses, different schools. There was a total segregation. But look at their contribution! They can do everything.

01:09:44.800 --> 01:10:33.200
[PT]: But Michelle Obama said the right thing. That the White House was built by the slavery
[EM]: Yeah
[PT]: In the speech that day she said
[BT]: So America is a country where you can
[PT]: So they had talents but, it was kept away, their talents
[BT]: Yeah. Obama come up. Why come up? Because he can really surprise, if you say, all the whites. Because his oratory skills. This is all that counts. Now you go into Olympics in Rio, and who is going to get the most gold medals? The people of color or people of no colors? Blacks are very big in Olympics, and games, Hollywood, what not.  

01:10:33.200 --> 01:10:43.100
[EM]: Yeah so the--looking at your own story of immigration and the Indian immigration community, it’s a repeat of history and continuing history.

01:10:43.100 --> 01:11:29.400
[PT]: Yes, continuing
[BT]: Our contribution will be totally different. It’s specifically in education, literature, science and entrepreneurship. Because the Indians who came to America, there where the crop--cream of the crop.
[EM]: Okay.
[BT]: No--not like Latinos who can work menials or low-end jobs. Indians are top. Their mean income is very high as the many ethnic groups, because they are--they’re different. They are educated. They came educated. Nobody came to do a housemaid work or construction work, not like that.

01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:49.100
[EM]: Well that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else that you want to add? *laughing*
[BT]: That’s about it! No, nothing. You just go--we want you to be successful. Get your--our story, whichever you want. You can follow us up again. We’re going to have to conclude right today. You know?

01:11:49.100 --> 01:12:17.700
[PT]: Our childrens are also doing very well. My older son, he’s MBA. BBA, CFA, Master’s 
[EM]: Wow! *laughing*
[PT]: He’s finance major, and he’s also professor in NYU.
[EM]: Oh, okay!
[PT]: Plus he's has a financial--his financial advisor firm here in Chicago. Not Chicago--from New York, but he has [inaudible].
[EM]: Yeah

01:12:17.700 --> 01:13:16.800
[PT]: Second one is having a company of Tasty Bite, maybe you heard it? and food, Indian food in packages.
[EM]: Oh, okay
[PT]: Whole Foods has it. So that's their company and my daughter is working for Deloitte in strategy department. She has a master’s in public policy. And my son-in-law is a physician, at NYU.
[EM]: Oh wow. So very successful children, that’s wonderful.
[PT]: Yes, very successful
[BT]: For the Indian diaspora, the main distinguished feature among Chinese and Indians, if you say those are the top people, along with the Caucasians. The Indian parents, when they came the empty pockets, only containing $8, but there was a diploma.

01:13:16.800 --> 01:14:26.000
[EM]: $8 and a diploma
[BT]: And a diploma. That’s carried the torch with their hard work, intelligence, and solid ethics, brought them still not only higer position today--you'll find the Indian of many CEOs, dean, president, vice president, and their children. Our children they are also doing top of the class all over. My--both the kids were valedictorians...in school
[PT]: Yeah and my daughter-in-law she’s a PhD and from Oxford University, so... *laughing* Rhodes Scholar...
[EM]: Oh my, yeah. Wow that’s wonderful
[BT]: So the children, Indian and Chinese kids by the education background, they are there excelling so high, they’re non-competitive yet. Than other ethnic groups.

01:14:26.000 --> 01:15:25.700
[EM]: Yeah. I would definitely agree with that 
[PT]: No, but see those are the values you start from the childhood. It’s not as strict values, and we are open to any different suggestion, any different thought, but you have to keep those boundaries, certain boundaries. Once they grow up, they’re already taken care of.  They can face the world. If your values are strong at home and you are open to ideas,
[EM]: They can handle anything
[PT]: They can handle anything
[BT]: Well, like you carry the values. I can attach to it because you are focused, except tattoos
[EM]: *laughs*
[BT]: It doesn't signify anything everybody had. Everybody inhales like Bill Clinton hiding in smoke. So you have to go through that, but see you came back to the square one.

01:15:25.700 --> 01:16:07.400 
[EM]: Yes
[BT]: The life has to go this--this way. You are beautiful, you are good looking, you could have gone to any, any side. You could be in the gutter, but you are excelling.
[EM]: Trying to
[BT]: Yeah, you have to work hard. You have to work hard
[EM]: Yes *laughing*
[BT]: You are coming from a farming community, you have to work hard. You met your husband, he's much more because you look upon him with his background and all that, and yet you found in conformity with your thought process. That's why you said, “Yes.”
[EM]: Yes
[BT]: “I will marry him.”
[EM]: Yeah *laughing*. Well I wouldn’t have married him if my--
[recording cut short]