WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:51:40.000 [JITESH JAGGI]: This is Jitesh Jaggi, now interviewing Mrs. Chawla by her grandson, Amar Chawla, at their residence. 00:00:00.001 --> 00:51:40.001 [AMAR CHAWLA]: Will you please state and spell your name for me? 00:00:00.002 --> 00:51:40.002 [URMILLA CHAWLA]: My Name is Urmilla Chawla u r m i l l a , as in apple, c h a w l a 00:00:00.003 --> 00:51:40.003 [AC]: Perfect. Can you just describe to me some things about your childhood? When and where you were born, the languages you spoke growing up, your siblings, your family, just describe to me your upbringing please. 00:00:00.004 --> 00:51:40.004 [UC]: I was born in Khanewal, Multan, which is part of now called Pakistan, but when I was born it used to be called India in the year 1942. And I was born into a, I was born to my mom after 5 years of her marriage, so she thought I was her life saver, because in India, Pakistan wherever, in India, if you didn't have a child then sometimes the husband would marry again, and she used to worry about that all the time. So when I was born she, she was happy that she had a child and so I was her life saver; she always called me. And we were three sisters before our brother was born. And again in India, having a boy was considered very important, and again she had the fear of, you know, being… my father marrying again just to have a son. So she always called me her son and then finally she did have a son and it's like she had nirvana. **laughs** 00:00:00.005 --> 00:51:40.005 [AC]: Sure, so, could you describe what your childhood was like, growing up in what was Pakistan? Did you move to India? 00:00:00.006 --> 00:51:40.006 [UC]: Well, when I was in Khanewal, Multan, I think I was up to 3 ½ to 4 years old. The only thing I remember of those first few years is that it used to be very hot in the afternoon. And we were all supposed to take a nap and stay inside, and I used to snuggle out with Nandi Maama, my cousin brother, and we would go to drink water from the pump tap and burn our feet, and the water used to be boiling, get into a lot of trouble. We had a full-time gardener, we had a big house there, and the gardener who had a baby and we only like to eat in their house all the time. Then also I was getting into trouble, that’s all I remember. 00:00:00.007 --> 00:51:40.007 Then, when the Partition was starting, we didn’t understand anything. We were all sent to a hill station for security. My dad and my uncle stayed back but we, the cousins and everybody, we went to a hill station. And then we came to Lucknow in UP and that’s where I went to school there in a convent school, and we went on. Only after 6 months when my, one of my grandfather's sister whose husband was stabbed in the train and, you know, then she started to come and stay with us, with our family and there used to be so much crying and you know the mourning for a while. That's all I remember, is, lot of mourning and adapting to having another family stay with us. So I saw my father, grandfather, and then my father always helping their sisters and cousins and step sister and other relatives. That’s all I saw all the time when I was really young. It left a lot of impression on me the. On one end, it was a lot of hard work for my mom and my aunts to cook so much and they do all the work, but they believed in helping out and that’s what the impression I formed in those younger years. 00:00:00.008 --> 00:51:40.008 [AC]: Sure, could you elaborate a little more on your family? You said your parents, specifically your father and your uncle, it sounds like you’ll maybe lived together? 00:00:00.009 --> 00:51:40.009 [UC]: Yeah, we had a joint business and we pretty much stayed together. And I loved to listen to my aunts talk all day. They would say “Go and play with the other kids.” And I said “No, only if you tell me what all you talk later on.” 00:00:00.010 --> 00:51:40.010 [AC]: Sure, Sure. So where eventually did your family settle as a whole? 00:00:00.011 --> 00:51:40.011 [UC]: Well, to begin with, we were in Lucknow, and my father and my uncle started a pharmaceutical retail shop. But that was not enough to feed a joint family of so many people and my grandfather, grandmother. But then we got a good settlement from the partition and the war, and with that money, my grandfather was able to get a big house in Delhi. And the opportunities to set up business or make some money in Delhi were more. So we all moved to New Delhi and for 45 years we stayed in that same house. And then again, whatever business was started in New Delhi was not enough for three uncles and their families. And at that time, there was this new city coming up in Punjab called Chandigarh, by the French design architect who designed it and all. So it was, like, barren land on which they were designing a new city and my uncles tapped on that. And they did very well as building contractors. But because we also had a house in Delhi and my grandparents were there and I was already going to school and they were no schools in Chandigarh yet. 00:00:00.012 --> 00:51:40.012 So my father used to go back and forth and he did more of the paperwork from home whereas my younger uncles used to do the field work. So we stayed in Delhi because there are no schools there till later on and then we were already established in Delhi. So my father sacrificed for our education’s sake just shunting back and forth from Chandigarh, two weeks here, two weeks there. And that's how the high school years went. Then my grandfather died and my father continued to be in Delhi and my uncles over there. But it was like a common house. If my uncle stayed, they all came and stayed with us. So that’s the way it was. 00:00:00.013 --> 00:51:40.013 [AC]: Sure. So you mentioned that you were taking your education in Delhi. What-- how far did you progress with your education and what sort of degrees did you-- 00:00:00.014 --> 00:51:40.014 [UC]: I did my high school in Delhi. I went to Convent of Jesus and Mary and my father did believe in good schooling and all. And then there was a lot of emphasis that I have to learn English because I've been studying in a convent. But my family didn't speak a lot of English at home. And so my English was not so strong, so I had to take tutoring to come to par. But once I got my tutoring and all, I was fine, and I passed, and I went to college and then my aunts recommended that a career for me would be a good career for women is teaching because I have a conservative dad and grandad who didn't really want me to be, you know, going and working in an office 9 to 5 kind of a job. So I took Economics Honors, in Miranda House another very well-known women's college. And from Miranda House when I graduated in Economics Honors with a good Second Division, whatever. Then I went, there was a new post graduate school called Delhi School of Economics based on London School of Economics. So I did my Master's there and after that of course, everybody's saying, “When is she getting married?” But I got a job to teach economics back in Miranda House. One of the teachers was pregnant and you know how you get an opportunity to fill up time and so that's how I got into that career. 00:00:00.016 --> 00:51:40.016 I always imagined that I’ll marry another professor or somebody I meet in the university. But then my aunt was sick in the hospital in Chandigarh and my husband was taking care of her as a physician. And she happened to know where his parents and you know how that goes. And when she went home from the hospital, she tells my father, “I found a good boy for your daughter” and that's how you know he came to visit with me one time. And I just couldn't even look at him, you know, otherwise you look like a, not a very good girl. So I hardly talked to him. So I saw his nails, they were very nicely cut and clean. So I said **laughs** “Okay, I’ll marry him.” That's my only criteria and then I made my younger sister sit in the same room for a while, so she could look at him and tell me. **laughs** So, based on my sister's input and others-- 00:00:00.017 --> 00:51:40.017 [AC]: Sure, so as a married couple, when did you move to America and how did the Immigration process-- 00:00:00.018 --> 00:51:40.018 [UC]: See, the reason he had to get married within the month is because he was going to join fellowship in cardiology here in July. And we got married in the first week of June and in three weeks that we were married, we had to go and get visa and marriage certificate and you know all those formalities to come here. They were not as bad as they are nowadays but they were still there. And if you know anybody in the embassy and all, things moved faster. So after 3 weeks we came here, we stopped in London on the way, he had an uncle there. So we borrowed $150 from him plus the $8 that the Indian government gave us and with that $150 borrowed money and with this he brought his wife, his bride to America. And then we stayed with one of his friends for two nights or three nights till we got our apartment. 00:00:00.019 --> 00:51:40.019 [AC]: And which year was this? 00:00:00.020 --> 00:51:40.020 [UC]: This was in 1967. Then he got a basement apartment. And I didn’t know where the hell I got here. I was living in the flat, up there in New Delhi. So anyway I said “Oh, I've come to America, we have to adjust to all this, become independent, we've got some freedom, whatever.” But I didn’t know how to cook, I didn't even know the English names of all spices and I would, one time, made a phone call to my aunt. I said, “What do you call--do you put these spices in the eggplant? How do you cook this? How do you cook that?” And my mother used to scold me, she says, “You learn to cook!” And I said “Ah. When I get married I'll have servants and cooks, why should I learn to cook?” So when I came to America where there were no servants or cooks, I had to learn to cook. And I hated my own cooking, but eventually became a good cook. 00:00:00.021 --> 00:51:40.021 And I was very lucky, there was a YMCA for women, a women’s section and there was an international something over there and they really welcomed me like a Welcome Wagon would do. And so they used admire my saris and I would do a bun and put on all my glamorous saris and go to the YWCA. They used to have International Night and then I will take some food I cooked. And then there was another doctor's wife from Peru, South America and they lived in the same building and the husbands were busy at work. She showed me how to mop the floors. I had no clue how to mop the floor and she said, “Oh, just get down on your knees, don’t worry, they’re washable.” So, finally I learned how to mop the floor. And when my son was born, he was born-- Again, I had no clue how to take care of a baby because in India, you never helped anybody, we had ayahs or helpers. I could not change his diaper so I made, he always changed the diaper, I couldn’t change the diaper for a long time. So this is the way I grew up, as a so-called immigrant in America. **laughs** 00:00:00.022 --> 00:51:40.022 [AC]: Sure. So what were your expectations, like, of America, of Chicago or wherever you emigrated to, when you were first coming to this country? Expectations-- 00:00:00.023 --> 00:51:40.023 [UC]: See, my expectation was really not so much. I only knew I was going to America after my marriage, and I know I had to be a good housewife. But I said, “Oh you know I can study more, I can grow in my education, I can get a good job.” So when I came here, my first desire was to study more till I can be, my master’s was at par with this and try to teach. That's what I was doing. Then I realized that when I wanted to go, they said you have to do one more year of master’s to come at par. But the fees were so high and my husband had no money to send me to college, we only had one car and the only way went to a movie because he used to do research on the side in one of the department and they gave him $16 every two weeks. And we looked forward to the $16 to go to Montgomery Ward to pick up some popcorn and see a movie. That was all we had to spare the money and we also have to return the money that we had borrowed from our uncle and friends. So when I had the baby-- So now I don't we don't have nannies, we don't have sitters in that time, 1967, so how could I go to study? So, okay that’s all right for a year I won’t--after year or two I said, “I want to do something” but pursuing higher education wasn't very practical for me at that time. 00:00:00.024 --> 00:51:40.024 So there was a Montessori school right next to our house and they offered me some free training if I could teach there. So it worked out, my son went to the Montessori school and I took my training at the same time. And then later on as he went to kindergarten I continued to teach in Montessori till my second son was born. Then I continued teaching in Montessori but when they both went to kindergarten, I said I'll study more and became an elementary school teacher, certified, and I taught there. But again, married to a cardiologist who had to go to work at 7 in the morning and not come back till I don't know when, so there's no way he could be a helping dad. So I could not take up a teaching job because teachers have to go one hour before the others. Whereas substitute teachers can go at the same time and leave at the same time. So I switched to being a substitute teacher for many years. And then when they were both in high school and college, then I pursued my career. But by then there were so many other things happened. We had family to support from India, and we had people who came from India whom we had to financially support. I became a full-fledged housewife. And we had two kids, making sure they get their grades good and all. So once a housewife, I stayed as a housewife. 00:00:00.025 --> 00:51:40.025 I had a potential to write, I used to enjoy writing poems and articles. And I once did a fashion show at some cultural event and I was the MC for that. The reporter from India Tribune, our Indian paper was there and he, he kind of, what do you say, “found me.” He said, “You have potential, I want to interview you.” I said, “I’m just a housewife. who just was doing the MC on a fashion show.” “I need to talk to you” and he made me, interviewed me, put a big article on me. My God! I became famous because he put an article. Who the-- and then he said “You write very well. I've seen you write, you know, press releases and all.” Start working with me, with India Tribune.” So I started to write. He was the editor and the main person on the thing. But he made me his legs and he taught me. “No more handwritten reports, learn the computer, learn to type.” That’s how I kept growing and I learned to type. I learned better English, I learned to take photographs so I could send him a photo journal-- journalist kind of report. And then for 8 years I was writing and whatever. But as a doctor's wife nobody paid me. why do you need money. This is a third world. We are a small community, there’s no money to do this thing we’re just starting. So others reported used to go free to all the events their dinner was paid for except mine. “You’re a doctor’s wife, you two can pay.” And my husband would say, “What do you mean? Every time you write a story I have to pay? I'm not going with you.” So it was kind of advantage and disadvantage of being where I was. So, one day, after 8 years, I said, “If you could only pay for my photography and run around and sending overnight, at least I don't impose the thing on him, they said “We can't afford it, thank you so much.” So that was the end of my writing. But then I was freelancing for a long time and now I have written a book. 00:00:00.026 --> 00:51:40.026 [AC]: What did you write about? 00:00:00.027 --> 00:51:40.027 [UC]: Well, I accidentally went into some religious classes. And she was a nice teacher and so I continued to attend those classes. And this was the Bhagavad Gita. I read and read and I said, “Why don't I write something on that?” And with my ability or my passion to write rhymed verses of poetry, I wrote the whole 700 verses in a rhymed form, and in simple English, so that my grandchildren, my children-- My real ambition was, “I wish they would read.” And my own boys, their religion, every time I had to take them for the Sunday school class, their religion was Bears game or any of these games that come on Sundays. They would not get up till 10:30 and then once they got up they would take a shower and just sit in front of the TV because the games are coming. And boys, being in the games and all, I couldn’t fight them too much, so I said, “I hope one day they’ll read what I write for them.” So my desire has been that my children and grandchildren and equivalent people around get to read it and those who are reading it are really liking it. Even the adults, they said, “We never read Gita which we understood. Now, we are really enjoying it” and things like that. So I just wrote, but it’s self-published book because with Covid and all, you can't really run around too much, looking for a publisher. 00:00:00.028 --> 00:51:40.028 [AC]: So back to your, I guess, during your early years of living in Chicago, in America, did you notice any sort of discrimination or how were you treated as far as opportunity and advancement in your work or just even in social aspects of your community? 00:00:00.029 --> 00:51:40.029 [UC]: I had one experience of realizing that I am a foreigner. We did not feel that we have white or black or brown, but we are foreigners. I was teaching in the Montessori school and then later on when we moved to Downers Grove, I got an opportunity to teach in a Montessori School run by a Catholic seminary or whatever, in Lisle. After one year, I was director of the class. They’re called directors, the teachers are called directors. One of the board managers, a board member came to me and they were being very diplomatic with me and all. He says “You’ve done a great job, we know you’re good but we have to listen to the parents on the board. And unfortunately they’d want to have another lady, white lady”. And so I said that's okay but that was my first experience. 00:00:00.030 --> 00:51:40.030 Then when I was doing substitute teaching, being from India, you know, we are nice to people and I was substituting in a Kindergarten class and one of the unhappy girls, she would do this or that. So she was sitting near the toys, so I also sat next to her and I said, put my hand on her arm and said, “Can I help you with this puzzle?” or whatever it was. She said “No.” She was not in a good mood, I left her alone. She goes home and tells her mother that “there was this new teacher, she hit me.” So the next day the mother came to the principal and said, “Who was the substitute teacher? She hit my daughter.” I just said, “Can I help you?” They didn't call me for substituting again. So that's when I started to get the taste of more like a foreigner than other places. I taught in Downers Grove schools, high school, junior high, elementary, you name it, in Woodridge and Downers Grove for years. And I was the exclusive substitute teacher, art teacher for a private school, Avery Coonley school. I didn’t have so much problem, but in public school like Villa Park and then you know, in communities which, there was that feeling of being foreigner, there was never a feeling of white or black or brown. May be our accent was different or that we are from India or something like that but that is the level of discrimination I felt, but not-- 00:00:00.031 --> 00:51:40.031 [AC]: so, have you noticed a change in that level of discrimination as you’ve lived here now for 50-something years and when did you start to notice the change? 00:00:00.032 --> 00:51:40.032 [UC]: We, only in the last few years that we started to be scared of who we are, brown or different, little bit, more looking on my shoulder to see who's behind us. Before that, we were very respected in the community. We as Indians or we as educated people, very well respected by whoever we met. I've been on in you know Oakbrook is a very white community, rich, wealthy society and I was, I became a member of the Network of Indian, not Indian, Oakbrook Women Club and I used to go their meetings, just to see what they do. I wanted to know American women, and I did, I volunteered to help them with the newsletter. Nobody was helping, and so I said, “I’ll help you with the newsletter.” And they were very happy with it, I was conscientious and I did do the newsletter to their standard, not everything but whatever. 00:00:00.033 --> 00:51:40.033 And then they did some fundraiser every year, so I was on the committee and I used to help them a lot. They appreciated my ideas, creativity and help, sincerity. But nobody, they would not give me a chance to go on, to give a vote of thanks because in the audience there were some very conservative white people. So one of the ladies would say, “Let Urmilla do it. She speaks such good English. Let Urmilla do it.” Everybody would be quiet. And I kept quiet. I never pushed myself. I knew I can only go this far in the community. One time it so happened that the lady who was supposed to do the raffles, announcing the raffles and all, she couldn't make it at the last minute. So this lady says go and do it. So I was asked to go and announce all the raffles. But I had a sense of humor and I had the right way of saying things. So people loved me. Since then I was always the announcer for the raffles. So it is, they don't know you so they always have pre- , pre-decided their opinion about you, because you’re a foreigner, or brown or whatever. So that's where my experiences were. 00:00:00.034 --> 00:51:40.034 [AC]: Right, so it seems like you've had some great academic and work experiences in the area and you said you mentioned, mentioned becoming friends with any Americans in your neighborhood or through your child's activities or anything. How was your social life among Indian friends and how did you maybe meet Indian friends or how was your leisure activities with your friends, can you just describe that? 00:00:00.035 --> 00:51:40.035 [UC]: See, in the beginning, we met a lot of people who were from his college or university, or we met Indians in the hospital, who happened to be coming from Chandigarh or wherever he studied. And so they invite you for dinner. It’s their son's birthday, “Okay, everybody come it's my son's birthday.” And so we started to have 5, 10 friends, that's all we could accommodate in our two bedroom apartments. And then that thing grew on us. We became like, when my son got married I had 500 – 350 people of mine. I mean, then our problem became, how to cut--Everybody became your family, everybody became your friend, but then we all pulled back because we couldn’t afford to have parties with that kind of numbers and afford to pay for them. So we had the peak and then it started to come down. 00:00:00.036 --> 00:51:40.036 [AC]: So what sort of leisure activities-- 00:00:00.037 --> 00:51:40.037 [UC]: Other leisure activities, in the beginning we went to the park District's and tried tennis, with the tennis elbow. Then we tried swimming and we learned swimming, you know, these are the few things we could learn and when the kids were in scouts or doing baseball, we ladies took one afternoon, we had a babysitting exchange group. Like, she has to go shopping, a friend of mine, in the neighborhood she’ll leave her son with me for 3 hours, then I’ve earned 3 hours. And then I would take some evening classes in swimming, and if I have to leave my son there, then I earn back the, those 3 hours. We had a babysitting exchange group or we used to call a sitter and then go out a little bit but not a lot. Mostly this exchange because we couldn’t afford babysitters at that time. And then some of us ladies, they used to play badminton together and all. And then the ladies said, “Let’s make a group where we women can meet and help each other struggling with immigration and all that. So we formed the Club of Indian Women, three girls from Bolingbrook formed the Club of Indian Women. 00:00:00.038 --> 00:51:40.038 And my son was just born, he was just a year old but one of the girls knew me well and she says, “Urmil has some good ideas, let’s have her come and join us, too.” So I said “My son is too young I cannot do it but maybe--” and they said, “Okay you come and join us on the advisory capacity give us some ideas and all.” But beyond that, I wasn't willing to admit-- But once I got in, when you have talent, it shows up, when you have talent, or ability or thinking or creativity, it starts blooming. So then after 2 years they asked me to become the president and I was trying to go do journalism simultaneously. And I was taking a lot of classes in College of DuPage so I could do composition, journalism, public relations, mass media. I did all those courses because I wanted to get better. 00:00:00.039 --> 00:51:40.039 In the meantime and first time in 1982, Indian TV programs started. And they knew that I write for the paper and that I do good MCs, so my speaking ability was there. So they said, “Tell Urmilla to come and do something.” So I started to do a segment called “Health is wealth” and since I was in the doctor's community I kept asking them to come and talk about this topic or that topic. But you know what, it's very sad. The Indian community or for that matter, whether it's the Philippine community or the Vietnam community, I don't know the right word for that “You pay to be where you are rather than get paid” because they think they giving us a chance. Nobody has money to do anything, they're all struggling, they say come and do it for free or try to find us a sponsor or find us this. For some days you can find sponsors you can’t live on sponsors all your life. Two years, three years on one hand, I'm rising, but nobody knows the real current underneath, that the pressure was to pay. And my husband is a man of principles because of being a doctor and you know, personality. He says, “Forget it, this is not how you're going to work. Either just go and do it, neutrally, and you did it and they got it done but you are not paying them.” I had to beg so many doctors to give the money and they thought it was against them to go and talk and give money. It’s like not considered, it was low, so they won’t do it. And if they didn't pay then she was mad at me, so I have to give up. I had to give up writing because the day I asked for money they said, “we don't need you.” I had to give up being on the TV because it was like the other way around, the pressure was very demeaning. 00:00:00.040 --> 00:51:40.040 So that's, but then I was, my kids were growing up and college-- I couldn’t afford the luxury of doing free things and free things. But then I used to cover all the events of the new temple that came up the Hindu temple. And I was writing reports for them. I used to sit in the temple all day when it was getting built writing, writing, writing. It had an effect on me. I got so fascinated with, inspired by the people who were devoted that I became a devotee myself. And now for 30 years I have had the pleasure of serving. I'm not getting paid but they have no pressure to tell me to donate. If we feel like donating, we donate. If we don't, it's not like what they were doing to me. So I work at my terms. If I feel like, I do it. But whatever my talent or ability is, I should cash in on it. I give you my time, that's all I can give you. So on weekends for 30 years I've been going to the temple but doing I can but not be under the pressure of “I have to give donation.” There were times when people would, those who gave $5000, were given the opportunity to do the master of ceremony. “Oh, the girl who's that lady who's give us 5000, let her do the master of ceremony,” because it is ego-elating, and they will give. I was not in that category so if they did not call me to be the master of ceremony that was fine. But what made me go for master of ceremony was because they asked me, because I was good. 00:00:00.041 --> 00:51:40.041 So that is where the growing community behaves. And it's not me, only, it's I used to also write for the Philippines paper, Asian paper. And she said, “Urmilla, it’s the same thing in our communities.” So, nowadays, girls don't give their free time. They have all got careers, making money. Now our Club of Indian Women is struggling, the girls don't give their time for free. Only we, the veteran girls are still running it. So this is the change that has come with the next generation. They’re all educated, they’re making good money, they had parents in America like me or his mom, parents who helped out when the kids were growing up so that they could continue working, whereas we didn't have parents here either. So we got sandwiched and crushed a little bit. I always thought, I’ll have a big career in America, you know, study more and this and that. Though I did continue to find ways to study but I could not put myself into a full career. It’s my own shortcoming, you know, because of these limiting circumstances in the beginning. But I didn’t have a bad life. I had a husband who was doing well, so that's another reason why I wasn't working because he was too busy. Somebody has to hold the fort at home. Forget it, so this is life. But life went on. I'm 77 years old now, and happy for whatever I have achieved or not achieved, it doesn't matter. 00:00:00.042 --> 00:51:40.042 [AC]: Sure, so as a pioneer of Indian immigration to America, how was your correspondence with your family back home and did you go visit or did you recruit any of your family to come move here to the United States. 00:00:00.043 --> 00:51:40.043 [UC]: We did both. It was not easy to go to India at that time, to save $10,000 to buy four tickets or three tickets. So sometimes I would go for 3 months and he would come later on for a month, two months and then come together. And whatever we could save, it took us a whole year or more to save that $10,000. But we had to put so much priority because of his guilt to be not going back that we had to be pretty hard on ourselves to save that money year after. every two years to go to India. It’s only when my older son started to go to medical school in college, the fees was too much, we could not afford to go to India. So we had a blackout time, for 4, 5 years we did not go. Then you know we felt guilty, then we went. But then when we come back it was hard to recover for us that kind of money. But since our kids got through college, we’ve been going every year, every other year. 00:00:00.044 --> 00:51:40.044 [AC]: And has your family kind of followed you here to America since you came? 00:00:00.045 --> 00:51:40.045 [UC]: Well, my mom came when I was having my second baby to help me but she didn't continue staying because my father was very traditional and he said “I'm not going to go stay with my daughter.” That was the tradition in India. So she just came and went back. Much later, when my father died and my mother really got unwell and we thought one of us will go to India and take care of her, but it wouldn’t work out. So then we decided to get her here. So the last several years of her life, she was, between me and my sisters and brothers shared her. 00:00:00.046 --> 00:51:40.046 [JJ]: So during that blackout period where you couldn't go to India always, how did you stay in touch or how did you-- 00:00:00.047 --> 00:51:40.047 [UC]: Oh, by then we had phone calls, phones, so it was on our budget, every Sunday, he has to call his parents and that way and he didn't have time to write a letter or have the aptitude to write letters. But I could not go shopping and go anywhere on Sunday till I wrote a letter. So every Sunday morning, I would quickly write a letter to my family. Let’s get out. 00:00:00.048 --> 00:51:40.048 [JJ]: So did they write you back? 00:00:00.049 --> 00:51:40.049 [UC]: Oh yes. 00:00:00.050 --> 00:51:40.050 [JJ]: Did you keep those letters with you? 00:00:00.051 --> 00:51:40.051 [UC]: Oh my god, he has boxes full of those. 00:00:00.052 --> 00:51:40.052 [JJ]: Yes, I was thinking, I see. 00:00:00.053 --> 00:51:40.053 [AC]: Sure. So I guess from your experience you've been involved in the Indian American community in multiple different aspects. What kind of impact do you think Indian Americans have made on Chicago specifically or in your community or your neighborhood? 00:00:00.054 --> 00:51:40.054 [UC]: Oh, we’ve made a lot of difference. For one thing, Indians came in groups. The doctors united to Indian Medical Association, the pharmacists had India Pharmacists Association, everybody grouped and so we became a powerful body. And those who were engineers or general professions, they became Indians in America, Association of Indians in America, for the secular kind of events. So I was involved at that time in lot of them. Because of my writing, I had to go to every one of them and got a lot of community awards at that time. Because I became visible and was in my 40s I was very active, visible in the community, did a lot of--you know, when you have the seeding, when seeding was being done in all of this organization, my husband and me have been seeds, sowing the seeds kind of people, and we became patron members and life members of every possible organization because we were the ones to become patron members, a thousand dollars, life member. So right now, even the India Tribune, it has stopped now, but we have life membership. Everything we had life membership to begin with. Now, when they ask for donation, we say, “No more, we’re retired.” 00:00:00.055 --> 00:51:40.055 [AC]: Sure, how do you see the relationship with, you had a first-hand relationship with India as an immigrant? How do you see the relationship for second-generation and third-generation Indian Americans being maintained with their family? 00:00:00.056 --> 00:51:40.056 [UC]: It depends on family to family. Some families go there often with their children, stay there longer, speak that same language Telugu or Tamil or Gujarati. They blend in when they go to India more with their cousins and all than otherwise. So some families have developed much better bond than others, but overall like, we had a Zoom the other day, what was the Zoom about, yesterday? Any way, we had a Zoom with the family. My both the sons, one in Florida and one here, they all participated. Yeah, it was Deepak Chacha’s birthday, so they know their uncles and all. So they were very happy to join but then it was all English. They get lost with the Hindi part of it, but they've also all come here one by one, so they have had good memories of meeting all their uncles and aunts, so after the effort of spending that money to go, for them to know who they are and them to come. It's an effort and if you people have made that effort then those are bonded. Some people are aloof or politics in the family, they never went. 00:00:00.057 --> 00:51:40.057 [AC]: True. Are there any specific experiences that stand out to you, that kind of shaped your interpretation of America when you came here or even later, kind of reaffirm that you wanted to be here or vice--on the opposite side made you miss living in India or just anything of that sort that really shaped your experience here? 00:00:00.058 --> 00:51:40.058 [UC]: As we got older, we need more help, and that's the time when you think, maybe we can go back to India, then we’ll have more help. Sometimes, when we became empty nesters, then we thought we could go to India, but then the compromise was, let's spend more money, put aside more money to be able to go back and forth more often. Then when you do go to India, then it’s an illusion. Everybody is busy there, they’ve got their own families, their own expenses, they’re not sitting there for you. And some have, when parents have died, and so it's not the same feeling, but wherever there was joint family, like my father's was joint, we already bonded with all my cousins. But in real life there are all busy now. You can’t go and sit in their house for the whole day, like you would in your own parent’s house. So there is that limitation now. But I mean we are American now in many ways but they still love us, we love them, we go, they welcome us, the economics is there. We cannot impose on them. We also now used to pour money and give money and help them out, we also don't help that much because we have our own responsibilities. Those things happen, they evolve. 00:00:00.059 --> 00:51:40.059 [UC]: Sure. Are there any sort of recommendations you would give to any young Indian Americans moving here or considering moving here or have just moved here, as someone who's been here as an Indian American for so many years? 00:00:00.060 --> 00:51:40.060 [UC]: But those who are moving here now, are definitely more educated and they, if they have to compromise their jobs, my advice to them was, will be, only stoop so low. I mean don't, if you have an opportunity here, don't let yourself sell less. And secondly, learn to smartly balance your family and job but do the job. Do the job because money is also very important in this country. Medical insurance, this and that, and that, the whole expense system sometimes is better, unless you’ve married a big, very wealthy man here. Till then, till a man becomes that wealthy, the women should try to work and find a balance between children, nannies, daycare, it's alright. 00:00:00.061 --> 00:51:40.061 [UC]: True. 00:00:00.062 --> 00:51:40.062 [JJ]: Just, now that we know this history going back, how did you just adapt to the Covid-19, hitting, did that change your situation? You seem to be a very outgoing sort of person, did that affect your social life, did that affect your mental health in some way? 00:00:00.063 --> 00:51:40.063 [UC]: Thanks to Zoom, I have four, today I have five Zooms. I’ve already done 3 Zooms, I’ve skipped one, and I have to--there’s an online funeral going on right now which I’ve missed. But that's alright. So through Zoom, I've gone to the funerals, with all my masks and all, just email and WhatsApps and those methods we have stayed and the only thing we got tired of us having to cook three meals a day and trying not to eat so much and then the two of us, but I since I wrote the book I was so busy editing it in the first two three months of winter, I didn't even realize it was Covid. We didn’t get that serious about the mask and the whole works. It's only in April when we started to go out a little bit that the mask and the whole works became more insistent. So we did the mask things and we've had company every weekend, two people, one couple or two couples, and just sit outside, and have a drink or snack or just order pizza. But now the weather is changing, things will change. Just like the restaurants will adapt, we’ll also find the ways to adapt or we’ll cut down on socializing, if it comes to that so we haven't decided how we are going to cope with the second winter. But so far we didn’t, we met few people at a time. I miss dressing up, my poor saris, and our poor good clothes, they’ve just been sitting there, I went to India in November, my suitcase of clothes hasn't even opened. I felt bad, the weddings and the celebrations, the congregations, we’ve missed out on that but we did so much that it's all right. 00:00:00.064 --> 00:51:40.064 [AC]: Well, thank you again for your time. 00:00:00.065 --> 00:51:40.065 [UC]: The tea is ready for you before you leave. 00:00:00.066 --> 00:51:40.066 [JJ]: That was the end of our interview with Mrs. Urmilla Chawla. Thank you, Mrs. Chawla, for the interview for the National Indo-American Museum.