WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:13.700 [JITESH JAGGI]: This is the oral history interview with Padma Rangaswamy on 15 May, 2021. Today we have as interviewer, 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:25.400 [KAVITA PLAYLE]: Kavita Playle.... Can you state your name and spell it? 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:37.600 [PADMA RANGASWAMY]: My name is Padma Rangaswamy and it's spelled P A D M A. Last name is spelled R A N G A S W A M Y. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:41.100 [KP]: When and where were you born? 00:00:41.100 --> 00:01:02.300 [PR]: I was born on June 24th, 1945, in Kerala, which is a southern state of India, and the town there was called Trivandrum, under British India, and it's now called Thiruvanthapuram. 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.500 [KP]: So what languages did you speak growing up? 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:35.200 [PR]: So in those early years, I spoke Malayalam, which is the language of Kerala, and I spoke Tamil, because that is the language which was spoken at home, because we are Tamilians, ethnically. And English came to me a little bit later, when I started school. I was there in Trivandrum for the first four years of school. 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:43.100 And I went to a convent school, so we started learning English very early on. So I would say I spoke about 3 languages. 00:01:43.100 --> 00:01:49.000 [KP]: Wow. How would you describe your experiences growing up, in your hometown? 00:01:50.000 --> 00:02:17.100 [PR]: So, the place where I spent my first few years until I was eight is not really my hometown. I consider New Delhi my hometown, because that’s where my parents were. In Trivandrum, where I was born, I actually stayed with my grandparents. So once I moved to Delhi, I went to middle school and high school and college there, and that’s what I consider hometown. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:41.600 And it was a very, you know, lovely childhood. I look back on it, you know, fondly, and know that I had, you know, pleasant experiences cause we were comparatively well off, went to good schools, lived in nice neighborhoods. And it felt, it was privileged in many ways. 00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:48.000 [KP]: Is there like one specific experience that really stands out from New Delhi, as a kid? 00:02:49.500 --> 00:03:21.200 [PR]: I think, the exposure to a variety of people, because my father was a railway officer, so we moved around quite a bit. We had free railway passes as children of railway officials, and just meeting new people and getting to know people from other parts of India. 00:03:21.200 --> 00:03:35.500 Feeling very comfortable with people who spoke different languages, and had different religious experiences. So that is what, I felt, was the most exciting part of growing up in a place like New Delhi. 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:41.000 [KP]: Yeah absolutely. So did your family practice a certain religion? 00:03:42.500 --> 00:04:09.000 [PR]: Well we are Hindus, but Hinduism was not practised in any rigid kind of way. We would go to the temples, occasionally and we would celebrate all the Hindu festivals like Diwali and Holi. But then we also celebrated Christmas, and we knew about Eid, because we had Muslim friends. 00:04:10.100 --> 00:04:25.000 So, our Hinduism, I would say, we wore lightly, but we also took it for granted. It was very much a part of the social fabric of our lives as well. 00:04:25.700 --> 00:04:30.000 [KP]: So do you still continue with that way of practice? 00:04:31.000 --> 00:05:03.800 [PR]: Well, coming to the United States, obviously, the people around us were not Hindus. And it was a new culture; different from, you know, the kind of homey feeling that we had in India when we were surrounded by other Hindus. But--and I think that made me a little more conscious of my Hinduism, and made me ask questions about my religion, why it was important to me. 00:05:04.400 --> 00:05:28.000 But I also felt very comfortable in America because the Christian culture was something I had known from going to school in India, which was an Irish Catholic school. So I understood Christianity as another world religion. And, you know--but it was not mine. So definitely it was a slight sense of being different, and belonging to a different religion. 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:34.500 [KP]: Right. So can you tell us a little bit more about your parents and what they were like? 00:05:34.500 --> 00:06:07.200 [PR]: My father was a railway official. And my mother was a homemaker. And they had, I would say, very solid family values. There was strict discipline enforced by my dad at home. And a lot of attention paid to education, you know. 00:06:07.200 --> 00:06:39.200 So we knew that my father made some sacrifices to be able to send us to an English-speaking school which, you know, cost more money than, you know, the other schools where the vernacular was taught. So, the sense of duty was inculcated in us and it was important, paying respect to elders. 00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:48.600 There were certain, you know, expectations of us, growing up, and I think that has stayed with us, you know, well into our adult years. 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.300 [KP]: So you say “us”. Did you have siblings growing up? 00:06:52.300 --> 00:07:18.800 [PR]: Yes, I had an older sister, who was just a year-and-a-half older to me, so she and I are very close. And I have a younger brother, who is about 4 years younger to me, and then the little sister who is-—You know that made us 4 siblings, which was considered, you know, kind of a midsize family. 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:32.900 It was fun! I think we had each other for company and enjoyed, you know, being able to play with each other, and they are still very, very important in my life. 00:07:32.900 --> 00:07:37.000 [KP]: So it sounds like you all lived very similar childhoods, growing up, being close in age. 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:50.200 [PR]: Yes. We all went to similar schools, and had--received pretty much the same education. We went out for family vacations together, throughout our growing up years. 00:07:50.200 --> 00:07:55.100 [KP]: So when did you come to the US and what exactly brought you here? 00:07:55.100 --> 00:08:28.400 [PR]: ...I had known about the US and read a lot about it, but I never dreamt that I would ever show up here **laughs**. It happened soon after we got married. My husband and I were in a small town in eastern India. And he was working for a government industrial complex. 00:08:28.400 --> 00:08:57.400 Working--it was called Heavy Engineering Industries. And we heard, one day, that there was going to be a talk at the local Club. An American agent apparently was there and he was going to tell us about life in America. And we thought we were just going to attend a lecture. And then he told us, “Well, you have an opportunity to go to the US, because America wants engineers. 00:08:57.400 --> 00:09:27.800 “And they are welcoming them. As long as you can pay for your own passage, you can go there.” And we asked him, “What on earth would we do there, how would we live? We don't have money to sustain ourselves.” He said, “Oh, don’t worry! You’ll get a job as soon as you land, because with your qualifications, you’ll able to find work instantly. And you can stay as long as you want. If you don't like it you can come back. 00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:50.600 “These are the terms under which America is inviting engineers like you to the US.” It just seemed too good to be true, you know? We couldn’t believe it. We checked around and many of my husband's colleagues had already left, and over the course of two years, we decided, “Okay we'll just come for a lark, see what it's like.” 00:09:50.600 --> 00:10:03.600 And, you know, maybe travel a bit, ‘cause both of us enjoyed the idea of traveling in the United States, and seeing this, you know, fabulous land, which we’d heard about it. And that’s how we landed up here. 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:15.400 [KP]: Very interesting. So were there, going along with that, were there any expectations you had of Chicago or the US before you came? Anything you thought you were going to see? 00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:46.800 [PR]: Well, most of what we knew about the US was from the Hollywood movies, right? So everything was really ideal and beautiful. People were prosperous. It was the land of milk and honey, there would be no problems, we’d find jobs **laughs**. And, you know, we’d settle down and make friends, and you know. The language that was spoken there we knew was English. 00:10:46.800 --> 00:11:15.900 So we wouldn’t have any trouble. We really didn’t have any other notion of what we might find here. We just said, “We’ll just go there and see what it's like.” And we landed in New York. So we didn’t know that we’d, ultimately you know, wind up in Chicago. Because when we landed, the job situation was pretty difficult. America was going through a recession--this was in 1970--and we couldn't find work in New York. 00:11:15.900 --> 00:11:42.800 I found work very easily, because I was...looking for a lower level kind of office work. But my husband was an engineer, and he wanted a very specific type of work. And so we kept looking for work and traveling westward, and finally wound up in Chicago where he got his first job. 00:11:42.800 --> 00:11:50.600 [KP]: Okay, so outside of, you know, looking for work for so long, were there any other challenges that you and your husband faced when coming to the US? 00:11:50.600 --> 00:12:20.800 [PR]: I think that was the biggest struggle, finding work, especially after having been told it would be the easiest thing to do, to find a job. And we didn't realize we were landing in the middle of a recession. I remember the “Big Three” automakers were on strike—-GM, Chrysler and Ford--were all down, so. When we traveled west, we landed up in Detroit. Spent a month and a half there looking for work. 00:12:20.800 --> 00:12:50.300 Couldn’t find any work. And then, when we landed in Chicago, the first job that was offered to my husband, when he actually reported for work, and they did a background check on him, they found out, we had to tell them that he had been to Russia to undergo some training. The government of India had sent him. And as soon as they heard that he’d been to Russia, they dropped him like a hot brick, and, you know, withdrew the job offer. 00:12:50.300 --> 00:13:24.100 Because in those days, the cold war was very much in the air. So they said they couldn't even do a background check on any one who had been to Russia. So we struggled in terms of finding work. I think that was the hardest part. Of course we were down to our last I think $10. We were given only $400 when he came to the country, and we ran through that money in the first, you know, month or two. And yeah, eventually when we found work, we were just so relieved. **laughs** 00:13:24.100 --> 00:13:30.600 [KP]: Yeah, I can imagine! So, how would you describe the first job that you did end up finding in the US? 00:13:30.600 --> 00:14:05.200 [PR]: So, for me, the challenge was to find work in the same town that my husband had found work in, because he was going to be the breadwinner. It was taken for granted that, you know, that is the way life would be. And when I went looking for work, I was actually quite appalled to find that all they wanted to know about me and my qualifications was whether I could type. 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:29.200 As soon as I showed up in an office for a job, they would assume--they would ask me about my typing speed. And I was like, you know, I went to college and I’ve worked as a journalist in India. Fortunately, I knew how to type **laughs**. So I was sent to the typing pool, you know, to assess my typing speed, and I would get those kind of jobs. 00:14:29.200 --> 00:15:01.000 And it was a real blow to, you know, my sense of self and self-worth, to be relegated to what I thought was just, you know, kind of secretarial, administrative work, not using my qualifications. So, the first job that I landed was still at, you know, much lower in terms of, you know, what it demanded of me than I could possibly give. 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:09.500 But again, as new immigrants, we were just happy to find work, and to get a paycheck at the end of every week. 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:22.300 [KP]: Right. Absolutely. So, kind of, are there any experiences or specific people from that period of your life who really had a lasting effect on you to this day? 00:15:22.300 --> 00:15:51.500 [PR]: I would say, in those early years, what was most important for our survival was, were friends and family. You know, we had some addresses of people that we had known in India. They came to the airport to pick us up and took us to their home. 00:15:51.500 --> 00:16:14.700 We stayed there with them for, you know, a month in the New York-New Jersey area. But we didn't find work there. We moved to the Detroit area, where we stayed 3 or 4 months with other friends. And, eventually you know, just staying with people who were mere acquaintances in India but when we came to the US, they turned out to be really life-support for us. 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:32.200 That kind of...bonding that I had, that lasted throughout our years of stay in the US. So we made very good friends because they were our friends in need, at that time. 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:39.100 [KP]: Right. So outside of people that you knew from India, was it difficult to make friends who had started here? 00:16:39.100 --> 00:17:08.400 [PR]: It was not--I wouldn’t say it was difficult to make friends. It was more that we were so caught up in just trying to settle ourselves into our new lives. Making new friends was almost a luxury. Because day-to-day life took up so much of our energies. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:35.700 And we’d relied so heavily on the few people that we had known from back home. We stayed with them for a long time. But generally speaking, we found Americans very friendly, very open, very polite, and welcoming of us. When we first came, I feel, in those years looking back, it was a time when immigrants were warmly welcomed into the United States. 00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:59.500 People were--wanted to know more about us. India was still considered exotic. So, yeah, I’d say acquaintances we made, you know, a lot of them. And neighbors would be friendly. So, but deep friendships? We didn't form until much, much later in life. 00:17:59.300 --> 00:18:11.700 [KP]: Right. So, having all of these acquaintances that you made, and even knowing all of these people from India, did you still feel homesick? Kind of, what were the feelings when you first moved here about missing India? 00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:42.700 [PR]: Yeah, I think, you know, of course, we missed India, we missed family most of all. We, we missed our parents. Our, you know, the lifestyle, the food. You know, the culture, the celebrations. Those, I think were the hardest part, you know, to not have in your life. And communication with India wasn't easy. 00:18:42.700 --> 00:19:13.900 It was through telegrams and your trunk calls, where you had to place a long-distance call and wait for the operator to call you back and say, “Okay, the person you’re trying to reach is on the line now.” You know? That kind of sporadic communication with them was all we had. So you know, we definitely missed that. But very soon we started--we began, what I know-- 00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:45.900 Later on, when I studied more about migration I realized, you know, that I had actually started a chain migration. Because my husband and I were the first to in our family to come settle in America. And we were followed by his sister, whom we sponsored. And so his sister and brother-in-law came. And then his mother and my mother followed, and they came and lived with us. 00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:56.400 So gradually, when the family connections were established in the US, it became a little easier. 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:03.500 [KP]: Right, absolutely. So with them all coming over, when was the first time afterwards that you went back to visit? 00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:28.300 [PR]: Well, my first daughter, Priya, was born here a couple of years after we came. And, you know, everybody back home was eager to see, you know, the baby, but we had to wait for a couple of years before we could save enough to go back. So I think we went back after two years. 00:20:28.300 --> 00:21:02.200 And then, because, you know, when I went back then I brought my mother over, my mother and my mother-in-law both took turns helping to babysit my daughter, so that I could continue to go to work. We needed two incomes in order to be able to live well in the US. And then, I would say we would go back periodically, maybe every two to three years to visit my siblings who were still in India. 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:19.600 [KP]: Wow that’s nice that you had the opportunity to do that. So in the beginning you said that this was going to be a temporary visit to India--to America and see what it was, but obviously you stayed. So what kind of, prompted you to get your citizenship and decide that is where you wanted to live the rest of your life? 00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:49.600 [PR]: It's hard to describe when and how exactly it happened, but after about three or four years of living here we had settled down quite comfortably. There was no pressure to go back. So we felt, “Oh, we will go back at some time, pretty soon.” I still remember when we bought our first home, my husband was reluctant. 00:21:49.600 --> 00:22:18.900 He said, “Oh, you know, buying a home here means settling down permanently, and that’s not what we want to do. Remember we came here with the intention of going back, back to India? India is home. That’s where we belong.” And we then--But we still bought the home anyway, purely as a economic decision. You know, like, it makes sense to buy a home. You save on taxes, and your home will appreciate in value. And then, when you want to go back, well, you sell your home, you make a little extra money, and then you can go back. **laughs** 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:43.600 Then, when my first daughter was born, and then came the second daughter, and then came you know, a little more comfortable living. You traded in your first home for a slightly bigger home, and before you knew it, you were hooked. It's like, “Do we really need to go back?” More and more Indians were coming here, our family was here. 00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:55.500 And we managed to, you know, just find ourselves living here, and realizing that this is where we wanted to be, at least for the time being. 00:22:55.500 --> 00:23:03.700 [KP]: Absolutely. So you mentioned that you have two daughters. Tell me a little bit about them and how they, kind of, helped develop your life here. 00:23:03.700 --> 00:23:32.400 [PR]: So, I think, when our daughters settled down in school, they were doing very well and it gave us great pride and pleasure to see that, you know, they were adjusting, doing well. But at the same time, it made my husband, I think, realize that they were not quite Indian. They were losing their Indianness. 00:23:32.400 --> 00:24:00.400 Somehow, the American part of them was becoming more and more prominent, and he felt, “Maybe we are moving too far away from our roots. And we should go back! And we should give them a strong sense of their heritage. And they need to feel and appreciate their Indianness as much as, you know, the environment that they are living in right now.” 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:23.100 And so we actually decided to go back to India in 1980, after having spent a whole decade here. So our children in a way, actually made us realize, both our Americanness and Indianness in such a complex way that we had to go back to India to reassert our Indianness. 00:24:23.100 --> 00:24:50.700 And we lived there for 10 years, before our children--again, because they were American at heart and deeply attached to America--wanted to return to the US. So we came back to the US in 1990. Our children have been a big force in the kind of decisions we made, in going back and forth between India and the US. 00:24:50.700 --> 00:24:56.700 [KP]: Mhm. Okay, so about them specifically. So how old were they when you guys left to go back to India the first time? 00:24:56.700 --> 00:25:19.600 [PR]: My older daughter was 9. And my younger daughter was only about 2, I think. Yeah. Between 8 and 9, yeah. So they were very young. And they had a lot of adjusting to do, too, you know, as they moved back and forth between both countries. 00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:34.300 [JJ]: What’s the difference between, just parenthood and raising children between, in Ameri--You raised them for 10 years in America and 10 years in India. What was--Did something stand out for you and your husband? 00:25:34.300 --> 00:26:03.200 [PR]: For me and my husband, resettling in India, the challenges were mainly economic. And some of it was definitely cultural, in that we had come from a very different world where things were managed easily because society functioned in a very different way. But in India we felt much more at home. 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:32.500 The children, on the other hand, because they have been brought up in America with a very strong sense of independence, of, you know, speaking up for themselves. Some of those values, especially in the educational system in India, were not encouraged. There was much more obedience expected from elders, from teachers. 00:26:32.500 --> 00:27:07.900 And that I think was a big challenge. And there was a sense of the children being stifled in India, and struggling to establish their own sense of self and identity. And I think, after about a decade in India, though we did very well financially, and you know prospered in one sense, in another sense we felt, you know, that our children really wanted to, wanted to come back to America. 00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:36.700 Because they've been born here, they had spent formative years here, and identified themselves as American. So we came back to America in 1990. So, you know, the first 20 years--10 years were spent in the US, 10 years in India. And when we returned to the US in 1990, we truly considered ourselves, you know, with one foot in each continent. 00:27:36.700 --> 00:28:06.200 And we became transnationals, because we had homes in both countries. We moved back and forth and the two cultures that had seemed so distinct and separate in those first two decades, somehow fused together. And for me that personal journey of discovery, of understanding that I could indeed have two homes. 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:32.800 That duality does not necessarily mean conflict, but could mean a kind of melding where you become, you know, more enriched by having, you know, two different worlds, both of which you belong. And knowing two different homes. You know, it’s like having two different parents, right? 00:28:32.800 --> 00:28:59.700 You can love each one in its own way,m and not feel disloyal because you love both. That was a very, very profound experience for me, and it came about only because I was determined to go back and study more about America. I went back to school, in the US, to understand American history better. 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:11.700 And by delving into American history, I think I discovered myself as a new transformed individual here. 00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:35.300 [KP]: Sounds like an incredible experience. So you did mention that your daughters had gained a lot of values when living in the US, and then when they transferred to India, a lot of those values were not welcome in the schools. How did that translate into your home, and you as a parent and how you, kind of, like, what was expected of you as a parent in India versus America and how did that kind of shape you as a parent? 00:29:35.300 --> 00:30:10.600 [PR]: I think our parenting styles evolved. But they also, kind of, swung back and forth, you know? In terms of, you know, at times, the Indian ways seemed important, and better. And in other circumstances, the American, you know, values of independence and individuality and adventurism seemed important as well. 00:30:10.600 --> 00:30:41.000 And made us realize that our children, you know, had indeed the opportunity to imbibe all those things. And you know, that as they grew up, I think it--they felt that it enriched their lives for them as well. So I think it was, it was valuable, though it was very painful at times. But ultimately we are grateful that, you know, we had those opportunities ourselves and gave it to our children as well. 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:58.900 [KP]: Right, of course. It sounds like something very unique that they went through. So, did you, kind of--So you said that your daughters did school both here and there. And that you mentioned that you went to college in India. Did you ever go back to school here, in India, or do anything other than work, when you were in the US? 00:30:58.900 --> 00:31:29.600 [PR]: Well, I worked for sev--My first job in the US, like I said, was, you know, in the secretarial pool, okay? Very quickly I realize that if I wanted to advance in the US, I would have to go back to school to get a higher degree. Because they were not recognizing my bachelor's degree in India. So I went back to get my master’s in Writing, because I had always wanted to be a writer. I mentioned I had been to journalism school. 00:31:29.600 --> 00:32:09.600 I had actually worked as an assistant public relations officer for Indian Airlines in India before I came here. And I've always believed in a career. And needing to work to sustain myself, I think helped me grow. And after I got by master’s, I went into market research and worked for an ad agency. I did marketing strategy planning for some years. 00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:39.900 Then we moved back to India in 1980. There, again, I, even though I could have stayed home and just raised my children, I went back to work. I went to work for the government of India, working for the--in the cabinet Secretariat, to celebrate and commemorate the anniversary of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, who is our first Indian Prime Minister. 00:32:39.900 --> 00:33:02.600 So I worked there for two or three years. And then when I came back to the US, I went back to school, got my doctorate in American History, like I said, and worked in the Chicago History Museum, on the neighborhoods of Chicago. 02.6 One of the neighborhoods was the Indian American neighborhood in Rogers Park and West Ridge up on Chicago's North side. 00:33:02.600 --> 00:33:34.900 So I studied the community in great detail, learned about how different waves of migration to the United States caused the community to grow, from a very small group to, you know, more than 250,000, you know, around the turn of the century. 00:33:34.900 --> 00:34:00.100 And that museum experience made me very, very keenly aware that preserving of heritage and understanding of our past was going to be critical, not just as it had been for me as an individual, but for an entire community. 00:34:00.100 --> 00:34:28.800 That the Indian American community that had settled in the United States would not really be able to find its place in America unless and until it knew about its past. Which is why, you know, telling the story of our lives here so that our children and grandchildren can understand why we came, and, you know, how we settled and-- 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:42.500 You know, our struggles in learning to become American, how that would, you know, make meaning for them as they live their lives here, taking their Americanness for granted. 00:34:42.500 --> 00:35:09.100 [KP]: Right. Knowing your story, definitely, would help your family kind of shape their view of where they are in life. So you mentioned that you did your master's and your doctorate in the US, and did your bachelor's in India. What were some, and of course they're very different programs, but what were some really stark differences you notice between higher education here versus there, as an Indian immigrant or even just a student in general? 00:35:09.100 --> 00:35:38.500 [PR]: I think the most important thing was that, in India, the education was much more geared towards passing down of information, and getting you to learn what existed, right? And mastering received knowledge, as it were. 00:35:38.500 --> 00:36:09.700 So we studied, you know, when I studied literature, I'd read all the great works. And I think it helped me lay a very, very strong foundation. When I came to America, I realized I was challenged much more to think for myself, to delve into my own capabilities and realize them on my own. Less tutoring or less guidance from professors. 00:36:09.700 --> 00:36:39.900 Much more about, you know, “Be the best that you can be.” Much more freedom to explore and experiment than I'd had in India. But I think both systems of education are really valuable. And I appreciate the foundation that was laid in India, but I also realize that, you know, if I hadn't had the chance to be independent and blossom, that that foundation would not have helped me, you know, go far. 00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:42.400 [KP]: Right. Best of both worlds. 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.000 [PR]: Yup! 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:59.100 [KP]: So you talked a lot about how, when you worked for the museum you started to realize kind of what effect your past had on your future. So what sort of impact do you think that Indian Americans have had and will continue to have on Chicago, as a city? 00:36:59.100 --> 00:37:29.900 [PR]: Well, because we came here in large numbers, based on the cohort that came, at a particular time in history, I think we've made a certain impact. Because the first lot that came were people like my husband and other engineers, doctors, scientists, who were brought here because they needed educated men to fill a void in the labor market in the US. 00:37:29.900 --> 00:38:00.300 And when that era passed, the chain migration that I spoke of, where, you know, you could bring your family members over? Many of us brought people who were not necessarily the same, you know, skill levels that we had. But they came and settled a part of Chicago on Devon Ave, and that's where I learned about the history about that neighborhood. 00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:30.000 They set up shops. They started helping the established immigrants gain more of an Indian American experience. They brought restaurants, grocery stores, boutiques. All the social, cultural, you know, additions to life that make it possible for you to continue practicing your heritage. So I think Indians have made a huge contribution! 00:38:30.000 --> 00:39:00.900 And then came the dot com revolution. All the Indians who came after that were IT professionals. And they contributed to the building of digital America. And then the second, third generations have, you know, ventured into all kinds of fields. And, you know, today, in Biden’s America, there are so many second and third generation Indians who are appointed to very, very high positions. 00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:15.900 So I think Indians have made a very strong impact, not only in Chicago, but in America, that is much greater than their simple numbers would justify. 00:39:15.900 --> 00:39:20.300 [KP]: Right, absolutely, like our wonderful vice-president, is one of those people that you mentioned. 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:20.700 [PR]: Yep. 00:39:20.700 --> 00:39:35.500 [KP]: So I guess what do you see for the future of this Indian American community now that we have, as you mentioned, many third and--second and third generations being appointed to higher positions. So I guess, what life do you envision for the future generations? 00:39:35.500 --> 00:40:02.000 [PR]: I believe that Indians who settle abroad will always be connected to the homeland. I know just from my study of history, that Indians who have moved out of India and settled, whether in the United Kingdom, or South Africa, or, you know, in Canada, the United States-- 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:38.500 They have had strong ties to India as a country, and to their culture, to their religious background. And I think in America, too, that will be the wave of the future. And with the kind of globalization that we have today, where there is free movement of people from India and the US, I'm hoping that, you know, the communi--Indian Americans will continue to have that strong ethnic identity. 00:40:38.500 --> 00:41:08.600 Places like the National Indo-American Museum have a huge role to play in that, to help them understand and appreciate their roots. But at the same time be able to contribute to the building of the land that they are in, and see how they can contribute, you know, continually to the building of America. 00:41:08.600 --> 00:41:17.400 I, I just feel it in my bones that that's the kind of **laughing** future that awaits the Indian American community. 00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:33.100 [KP]: Yeah, absolutely. So, you mentioned some organizations, such as the museum, and places that are doing their best to really preserve their history. Were you a part or are you a part of any organizations for Indian Americans, kind of, what is your role in the community? 00:41:33.100 --> 00:42:04.500 [PR]: Yes, I have always been interested, like I said, in understanding the socio-economic/cultural context of my community. And when I started doing research, I joined the Indo-American Center, which is a social service organization in Chicago that helps newer immigrants, you know, settle in America. 00:42:04.500 --> 00:42:36.400 And for several years, when I was on their board, I began to appreciate more and more the importance of providing direct services. But, somewhere along the line, I realized that educating mainstream America about who Indian Americans are is just as important. It's not just important for us to be economically and socially secure in ourselves. 00:42:36.400 --> 00:43:06.800 But important for others to understand us, so that they can accept us as part of their world, as well. And that's when we--with a bunch of other like-minded people--we started the NationalIndo-American Museum, because we felt that that was the place where that kind of education and sharing of experiences could take place. 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:25.200 So these are the two organizations that I have been really closely associated with. And I feel that they have--they will have lasting influence in American society. 00:43:23.500 --> 00:43:35.000 [JJ]: And what has been your role in these organizations? And were you able to bring some specific skills or perspectives, on your behalf, to these organizations? 00:43:35.000 --> 00:44:09.400 [PR]: I think my life as a academic and historian, writing the first book, for instance, about Indian immigration to the Chicago area, and exploring what the community could do, was the most significant thing that I feel that I have done, in my life. 00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:39.700 I have also worked with other Indian American organizations like the South Asian American Policy and Research Institute which, again, uses research to be able to help the Indian community claim its share of... 00:44:39.700 --> 00:45:11.800 benefits and privileges that the government can offer distinct ethnic groups. So, Indian Americans being part of the South Asian community is also important, because we have to align ourselves with not only our own community, but the broader South Asian immigration population in order to gain political clout in America. 00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:16.500 [JJ]: Okay. You’re re-starting. 00:45:16.500 --> 00:45:33.400 [KP]: So you’ve talked a lot about the organizations that you've been a part of, and how you’ve really tried to capture your past and your present and your future. So, I do know that you are an author, and you’ve written some books. Tell us everything there is to know. 00:45:33.400 --> 00:46:02.700 [PR]: Oh dear! **laughs** Well, the first book that got published was actually my dissertation on Indian Americans in Chicago. I had actually hoped to write a fictionalized version of **laughing** the transnational Indian, who felt comfortable in two countries at the same time. 00:46:02.700 --> 00:46:29.400 But when I went to school to talk to my creative writing professor, he said, “The kind of questions you're asking yourself really belong in a-—you will find the answer in the history books first, so why don't you go there?” And that's howcome I wound up, you know, studying history and becoming a historian. 00:46:29.400 --> 00:47:00.700 Because I realized that studying the individual, without studying the context in which the individual lives, didn’t make much sense. And then I was completely captivated by history. And I think, you know, one after another, the history writing came to me. I started to write articles for encyclopedias. I wrote a secondary level book on Indian Americans. 00:47:00.700 --> 00:47:30.300 I’ve written several chapters for books that deal with Chicago, and the growth of different ethnic groups in Chicago. Which, again, helped place Indian Americans along with all the other different ethnicities here. ‘Cause Chicago, after all, is a city that has that has been home to people from so many different nations. 00:47:30.300 --> 00:48:09.900 And writing has, I think, is a way of not just expressing myself, but discovering myself. So I hope that the writing won't stop, that I will continue to be able to do it, but what I've written so far, I think it's been mostly helpful in documenting and recording the experiences of Indian Americans in Chicago. 00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:19.600 [KP]: Right, absolutely. So what was that experience like, as an Indian immigrant author in this country? And coming from--What was that like for you? 00:48:19.600 --> 00:48:50.600 [PR]: The acceptance of, you know, my scholarship has been extremely gratifying. You know, knowing that the voice is authentic, because it is written from lived experience, right? You know, most people think of historians as people who write about the past. 00:48:50.600 --> 00:49:17.900 And that sit in libraries and, you know, maybe research the lives of those who--of others. In my case, it was my personal life, because I had to ask myself, “Why would I--Why would someone like me, who had grown up in India, newly-independent India, where I was proud of my country. 00:49:17.900 --> 00:49:48.500 Where my family--which was upper middle-class--had taught us that we would spend our adult years in the service of our country, helping India develop and become more prosperous--How did I, who grew up with those ideals, land up in America?” A country that was, you know, so far from my--I mean it was not like I'd grown up dreaming about being in America, like many other immigrants may have. 00:49:48.500 --> 00:50:21.100 I mean, we didn’t flee poverty, or persecution, or anything. But I found myself in the US, and I had to ask myself, “How did that happen?” And that’s when I understood that what drives immigration is not just a person’s individual decision, but historic forces. You know, it was possible to come here because Johnson had signed--President Johnson had signed a law saying, you know, people from Asia were welcome to the United States as long as they were well-educated. 00:50:21.100 --> 00:50:51.900 You know, for a long time America had practiced discrimination against, you know, people who did not belong to the Northern European white countries. And I just happened to be at that moment in time and in history, where the gates of America were opened to people like me from India. So that was what made, you know, the move possible. So how those historic forces shaped my individual decisions. 00:50:51.900 --> 00:51:21.100 When I realized that, I think writing--writing history, but living the history that you write. And then I realized that if we don’t write the history ourselves, then somebody is going to write it for us. And it's not going to be the story that you want to tell. So every individual has a right and a duty to tell their own story, which is why I'm passionate about oral history itself. 00:51:21.100 --> 00:51:35.500 I feel that those voices must be heard and must be preserved. And I'm very proud of the fact that the National Indo-American Museum is dedicating so much of its resources to capturing those voices. 00:51:35.500 --> 00:51:04.300 [KP]: Sounds like you’ve done a lot to really preserve and show the world your culture and your experiences. So I guess, a couple final questions. Your life today, as you are living it, with Covid-19 pandemic, and everything else that you’ve accomplished in life, is it what you thought it would be, is it more, is it... Is it everything you thought it'd be? 00:51:04.300 --> 00:52:34.000 [PR]: ... Who thought that there would be anything like a pandemic in our lives? I did not, you know, even though I pride myself on **laughing** my historical knowledge, I must say I knew little about the pandemic of 1915? ’18? Whenever it was. 00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:57.000 And I became aware of it only as--I mean it hit us with such force that I think we are still reeling from its effects. The idea that an entire--that the entire world would be shut down the way it has been. I mean we’re--Again, it's like we're living through history again. This IS one for the history books. 00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:23.600 And for us, for me personally, the isolation, the sense of being cut off, not being able to see family and friends, was really profound. I think it has changed everyone who's been through the pandemic, whether or not they've lost a loved one. But it has made us more reflective as a society. 00:53:23.600 --> 00:53:50.900 And, you know, hopefully, more thankful for all the blessings that we do have in life, taught us to be kinder to each other. And I know that for me, it has, it has had that, you know, very sobering effect of how fleeting life is, and how suddenly, you know, things can change. 00:53:50.900 --> 00:54:03.700 And I'm hoping that as we gradually come out of it, that though people have all been through a hard time, that we have learned some very important lessons on how to live as a world. 00:54:03.700 --> 00:54:14.600 [KP]: Yeah, absolutely. It definitely has been an enlightening time. So tell me a little about your life right now, that you are living currently. Family, work? 00:54:14.600 --> 00:54:37.400 [PR]: I'm happily retired at this point. And very, very--feel very privileged that I have some time and resources to doing the things that I am most passionate about. Which is, I love to travel, I love to spend time with family, and, you know, give back to the community in some way. 00:54:37.400 --> 00:55:09.000 So...I enjoy time with my grandkids. And manage to, you know, move back and forth. I think that's probably the most--the one thing that I dedicate myself to fully, family, friends, and community. 00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:27.500 [KP]: Absolutely. So you mentioned you had grandchildren. So, I guess I'm just wondering, you said you had a lot of realizations about your children growing up, and, you know, their Americanness versus their Indianness. Did you have any of those same realizations about your grandchildren as they grow up or grew up? 00:55:27.500 --> 00:55:58.000 [PR]: I think my grandchildren are--They see themselves as American in ways that we didn’t. Obviously, because we were born and brought up in another world, and then came to this world. But at the same time, they are very much aware of their ancestral background. They know that their grandparents came from another country and settled in here. 00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:21.700 That’s part of who they are. But they accept their Americanness, and I think, the, the awareness of the past and the promise of the future will, will be a part of their lives. And I hope they will continue to flourish and cherish their uniqueness. That's the beauty of America. 00:56:21.700 --> 00:56:51.500 I think, that no matter how many generations down you go, people still talk about how they have a little bit of German, and a little bit of Native American, and a little bit of English in their blood. They seem never to forget it. **laughing** I don't know when, when people will say, “I don't know where my ancestors came from.” America tends to do that, you know? 00:56:51.500 --> 00:57:07.800 It allows you to be American, and at the same time, not forget your roots. So I hope my grandchildren will continue to have that strong sense of, you know, who they are. 00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:30.000 [KP]: Yeah absolutely, being able to have a little bit of everything. So closing remark--So closing remarks, is there, I guess anything that you want either future generations of immigrants or anybody who is living a life that relates to yours, anything that you want them to know? 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:35.700 [PR]: ...About myself or about--? 00:57:35.700 --> 00:57:38.500 [KP]: About what their life might be or about what-- 00:57:38.500 --> 00:57:53.300 [JJ]: A message you would like to pass down or, if you know somebody who is now--Let’s say somebody’s immigrating from India today, is there some particular kind of message you would like to pass onto new generation of immigrants from India? 00:57:53.300 --> 00:58:29.400 [PR]: If people have decided to leave their homeland, and come to the United States, and live here for good, I think to be able to recognize that America is not necessarily unique. In the sense, it is--There is a lot that it has in common with other countries, even though Americans do have a sense of exceptionalism. 00:58:29.400 --> 00:59:00.000 Like they, they are more free. They are more democratic. They give people more opportunities than other countries do. I think to realize that America is--has its ups and downs. It is not ideal. There is, in spite of all the talk of land of the free and home of the brave, it is still a country that is struggling. 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:34.100 There are a lot of people who are, who are not able to live up to its ideals. But I do believe that this is a country where one has greater possibility of achieving some of those ideals than many other countries in the world offer. To take advantage of those opportunities, and to know that, you know, if you try, you can make it. 00:59:34.100 --> 00:59:58.500 And if you believe, you will achieve it, you know? That spirit has not died in America. And if they can accept America with its failings, and, you know, move beyond that, and seize its strengths, I think America will really have boundless possibilities for them. And you know, they need to, they need to be able to see that. 00:59:58.500 --> 01:00:17.800 Beyond all the faults, and the weaknesses, there is hope and there is a future in America that is really limited only by their own faith in it. 01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:27.300 [KP]: Absolutely, some good advice for a, a more realistic American Dream, if you will. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your story with us all today. 01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:28.500 [PR]: Thank you. 01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:32.700 [JJ]: And this concludes our interview today with Padma Rangaswamy and-- 01:00:32.700 --> 01:00:35.900 [KP]: Kavita Playle.