WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:58:45.000 [JITESH JAGGI]: This is Jitesh Jaggi, program manager for the National Indo-American Museum, today at the residence of Dr. Umesh Sharma for oral history interview conducted by Shrishti Dear. 00:00:00.001 --> 00:58:45.001 [SHRISTI DEAR]: Hi, can you please state and spell your name? 00:00:00.002 --> 00:58:45.002 [UMESH SHARMA]: I am Umesh Sharma. You want me to spell it? U m e s h. S h a r m a. 00:00:00.003 --> 00:58:45.003 [SD]: And where and when were you born? 00:00:00.004 --> 00:58:45.004 [US]: I was born in November 10, 1940 in India city called Kanpur. 00:00:00.005 --> 00:58:45.005 [SD]: And can you describe how it was like growing up in Kanpur? 00:00:00.006 --> 00:58:45.006 [US]: Well, it was--we came from a middle-class family. We were not struggling, but we were not well provided, so everything we have to be kind of controlled but we couldn't afford. I stayed there and I grow up, just like any India in other city neighborhood. Went to school there, college and medical college in Kanpur, yeah. 00:00:00.007 --> 00:58:45.007 [SD]: And how many siblings did you have? 00:00:00.008 --> 00:58:45.008 [US]: How many? 00:00:00.009 --> 00:58:45.009 [SD]: Siblings 00:00:00.010 --> 00:58:45.010 [US]: I had seven sisters and brothers, we were four brothers, three sisters. 00:00:00.011 --> 00:58:45.011 [SD]: And were you close in age? Were you far apart in age? Are you the oldest? I was the third one in the line. I had one older brother, one older sister. And then, there was some gap in between and there was one sister younger I lost. I think she was only 12 years old, so the other brothers came and a sister came later on. 00:00:00.012 --> 00:58:45.012 [SD]: And could you talk a little bit about your parents? What were they like? 00:00:00.013 --> 00:58:45.013 [US]: My parents, they came to Kanpur, I think my father grew up in Aligarh and he came and started as a clerk in electricity company in Kanpur. And he stayed until the end, the same company and retired as executive officer. He was a very hard-working person very dedicated to his work and the family. And I know when we went through the phases that we used to live in a rented house and then we decide to build the house, he had two, and at one time, three jobs. That would mean that he will leave in the morning, and not come till about midnight, because after his job, 9 to 5, he'll go and take up another job. And sometimes another job in between. So, growing up actually, one of the thing is memory I have is I did not see him as much as I would have liked to. But you know I guess now, I understand that’s the price you have to pay to achieve somewhere, but he was able to provide us well. And one other thing I remember is that he said, “Whatever education you want, I will provide that for you.” And he did that. And he did that for all our brothers and sisters. Not everybody took advantage of that opportunity provided, but. 00:00:00.014 --> 00:58:45.014 [SD]: So did you work growing up? Did you and your siblings work growing up or was there a focus on education? 00:00:00.015 --> 00:58:45.015 [US]: Not really, that’s one of the luxury I look at it luxury now. I didn't have to go for a loan to go to, student loan, to go to school. So, even medical school, he provided the fees, whatever was needed, you know. So that was a luxury for me. No, I did not do any job in India. After graduation from medical school, I did do a training called residency, and I was getting some stipend, but really, I did not have any job. 00:00:00.016 --> 00:58:45.016 [SD]: You went to medical school in Kanpur. Were you the first sibling to go to medical school? 00:00:00.017 --> 00:58:45.017 [US]: Yes. 00:00:00.018 --> 00:58:45.018 [SD]: Could you tell me a little bit about that? Being the first. 00:00:00.019 --> 00:58:45.019 [US]: Well, I had a point in my life, I had to think what I want to do with my life. Normally, you go to high school, we do that, then intermediate, and then you go to the point, okay we did intermediate, then you doing BSC. Now, you have to think about what you want to do with the life. At that time, I kind of not very clear in my mind and you, like a young person, you thinking about more idealistic things, you know. And I didn't like the things were going on and after BSC, I was kind of lost what to do. After BSC what do you do, you become either do the botany and become a professor somewhere, or, which I didn't like, so I had to make a decision. So, the other thing was medical school. So, I had to think about actually, there was a little set back, I left home for a few days, came back, because the pressure I was going through in my family. And I said, “I don't want to go anymore.” So, because of that event, that little event, I left home without telling anybody. And so, everybody was kind of stunned by that, and came back in few days, but the things change in that everybody's perspective. Nobody then bothered me. Nobody was bugging me do this, do this. (inaudible) okay. So now, I had to think, what I want to do. At that point, I decided I want to go to medical school. That was not easy, I prepared for it, took a competition over so many medical school, thousands of students that picked up. And not the first attempt, but the second attempt, I got picked up. After that, my path for my career was already charted out. 00:00:00.020 --> 00:58:45.020 [SD]: So, when at that point, did you decide to come to the United States? What brought to the United States? 00:00:00.021 --> 00:58:45.021 [US]: It’s interesting question and the interesting answer. People go conventionally, you do the medical school, you choices you have, you set up your own shop and it’s a practice. And I had done a specialty, after my medical school, I went to Lucknow, and I did a master's in surgery which is like a board-certified surgeon. And that was ’68, I was board-certified surgeon. So, I could not just open a practice like this. So, my choices were in India that, well I have government service in (inaudible) somewhere. And interestingly, there was one job I was offered, I went to see, it's kind of village district kind of thing, and I went there, the was no other doctor. And there was one compounder, used to run the place. And as a surgeon, I am trained surgeon, and I couldn't even do a small surgery (inaudible) something like that. I said, “What am I doing here?” Incidentally, what has happened that before, few months before that, I had applied for at that time, there was opening for, they call it employment voucher in UK. So, I had six months before I had applied for that, just filled out, you know. And they called me, possibility (inaudible) and I had gotten married by that time, you know. So, I had to make some decisions, and of course my wife at that time, she was instrumental in making the decision to come out. And the reason was that her brother was already in USA and UK, so that helped a lot. And since I didn't even know the better option, so we decided to come. 00:00:00.022 --> 00:58:45.022 [SD]: And what year was that? 00:00:00.023 --> 00:58:45.023 [US]: ’68. We went to UK, we were there two and half years, then we decided to come here. 00:00:00.024 --> 00:58:45.024 [SD]: And besides the connection, the family connections, was there anything else that drew you to the United States? 00:00:00.025 --> 00:58:45.025 [US]: Well, the first thing, when I went to UK, when you leave India, you really don’t want to leave India. You always thinking, I’m probably coming back. Trend at that time was people go to UK and do FRCS, this is the fellowship in surgery, okay? So, I went to UK, and that's what I had in my mind that I’ll do that and go back to India. But, situation there was totally different. First thing you could not get easily, you had to find some job, something to do that. And then, people who have been there for many years, they have done that fellowship, still they could not get the position to become a professor or somebody, because there is a system. There are only so many (inaudible). And if somebody died, then the opening (inaudible), and then, somebody gets moved up. So, I did not see much future in UK. Though, I did do FRC as part 1 and then, in the meantime, you know, it was I had applied for some job here, being there. And I got an offer without interview in Massachusetts in Worcester City Hospital. They offered me job and even the money looked very attractive at that time. So, we decided to come from there, here. 00:00:00.026 --> 00:58:45.026 [SD]: So, you went to Massachusetts first? 00:00:00.027 --> 00:58:45.027 [US]: Yeah. 00:00:00.028 --> 00:58:45.028 [SD]: And then, how did you end up coming to Chicago? 00:00:00.029 --> 00:58:45.029 [US]: One of my wife's brother was already here, actually, yeah. One was, he used to work in Abbott Lab, pathologist. And the other brother was also here doing the fellowship and something. So, there was attraction there, so I came here, I met them, and actually, I didn’t even interview, I just walked and visiting different hospitals in Chicago. And I remember that I went to Mount Sinai, I didn't really click, I met other people. But, I go to Mercy Hospital in Chicago, and I walked in, and surgery department and the chief of surgery was right in the office. So I said, “Who’s the chief of surgery?” There. And I walked in there, and I said, “Good morning,” and Robert Smith was his name. And I said, “I'm such and such and I'm looking to move here and looking for the residency.” And he liked me, he said, “I can’t give you, because I had done one year there.” Okay, I had a background in India. So I wanted third year position. And he said, “I can't give you third year, but I can give you second year.” So, that'll save me one year. Because, at that time, we had to go four year residency. 00:00:00.030 --> 00:58:45.030 [JJ]: How old were you at that time? 00:00:00.031 --> 00:58:45.031 [US]: Close to 30. 00:00:00.032 --> 00:58:45.032 [JJ]: Close to 30, and did you have to kind of retrain yourself in the medical customs here? Or, did your training kind of transfer over easily. 00:00:00.033 --> 00:58:45.033 [US]: That’s the point I’m making. When you come this country, it does not matter what training, what experience you have. You have to go through the system here, retrain. So, in ’68, I was a board-certified surgeon in India. But then, I went to UK that was additional, and when I came here, I had to go four years residency, one year added here, and two years here. 00:00:00.034 --> 00:58:45.034 [JJ]: So even if it’s UK, like usually, I get the same answer from people who come from India, but even UK. 00:00:00.035 --> 00:58:45.035 [US]: This country, which is good that they do not give you much credit, maybe one year credit to your training outside. 00:00:00.036 --> 00:58:45.036 [SD]: So, how many additional years would you have to put in here, in total to be able to— 00:00:00.037 --> 00:58:45.037 [US]: I put in four years here. That’s if you take total, four years in India, two and half years in UK, and another four years here. So, almost eleven years we were in training. The good thing was that nothing goes waste. The experience I have and exposure I had, it stays with you. And it helps you to move on whatever you do. 00:00:00.038 --> 00:58:45.038 [SD]: Do you think that it helped you become a better surgeon to have that experience? 00:00:00.039 --> 00:58:45.039 [US]: I think it helped me to become a broader surgeon. And by that, I mean is that, I was a general surgeon, means people do the regular surgery. You know, the hernia, gallbladder, things like this, you know. But I had experience in UK which, one year, I had to worked in a hospital which treated only the lungs. And I had done 110 surgeries, assisted, done, of open chest. The reason was that hospital was located in Devonshire, this is a Southwest of England, and there was two other counties, Devonshire Cornwall and South Wales. Two things, they had coal mines, and they had, everybody smoked. So the incidents of cancer lung was so high and this was their specialty hospital. Actually, there used to be TB hospital long time ago. And then TB got eradicated, so they converted it into thoracic hospital. So, I had spent more than a year, one year, and that experience has stayed with me. And because of that, even though I was not trained here for the lung surgery, but I got privileges. 00:00:00.040 --> 00:58:45.040 [SD]: And what is your specialty in surgery? 00:00:00.041 --> 00:58:45.041 [US]: I was basically a general surgeon, but acquired by the training, more additions, so, by the time I was on the peak of my career, I was doing thoracic, and I was doing some cardiac and also vascular surgery, that means the blockage of the artery, (inaudible), opening it up. 00:00:00.042 --> 00:58:45.042 [SD]: Can you talk about your experiences immigrating into the United States? And some of the expectations you had and some of the challenges that you met when you came here? 00:00:00.043 --> 00:58:45.043 [US]: Let me start with my experience in UK, then you can compare. The India is totally different, you know, okay. In UK, that was a depressing time of my life. Two reasons. Financially, we were not well paid. Number two, on the streets, you could feel the discrimination. You walk into London, some store, and the guy will talk to me like, This is belt, this is, like, this is two pound something. So, you felt that. Indians, we were not very well expected there, they were coming up, you know. So, that’s number one. Number two, my career opportunity were not there. I knew I could not get anywhere. My, I think, the money I was getting paid was maybe, in the whole year, 2500 pounds. So, when I got a job here which was $10,000 per year in United States, that was, say Wow **laughs**. And without interview. I got that, okay. The other experience when I came from UK here, it was like two different worlds. People were more open here, there was discrimination, but (inaudible). I came to city called Bossier City Hospital, and there were lot of Indian there. Even Indian restaurant there, so those things, and Indian activities. One other thing (inaudible) is that, you know, in the place where I was in England, we were socially deprived. We didn’t have too many Indian friends up there. Here, just got there, that one, number one. Number two, everything was so cheap. Mentioning, the gas was 30 cents a gallon, and on the top of, there’s the full service, and on the top of, they will give you some gift (inaudible) or something like this, okay. And free car washes. So, I mean we didn't have much, but at least we're happy you could manage. $10,000 was a lot of money for me. So that’s how we--so we started life, we made friends, and I met lot of my—when I moved to Chicago, I met lot of my classmates from Lucknow. They were here. They were little had, they came earlier, so they were already finished their residencies and consulting and all, so they, so I felt at home. 00:00:00.044 --> 00:58:45.044 [SD]: So, you spoke a little bit about discrimination in the United States, can you talk a little bit about what that was like? 00:00:00.045 --> 00:58:45.045 [US]: Well you know, it was not that obvious, but you see. Like when you go, you're dealing with the hospital level, and how the administration will deal with you and then versus some another local guy. You could see that. They will never mistreat you in front, they always treated you well. But, you see that, when giving a position (inaudible) Socially, day to day, I already did not feel that much. One of the thing is at that time when we came here, most of the Indians were here, they were professionals, they knew, if you’re going there, you are at least doctor, or engineer, or something professional. IT was not there, IT came much later on, but you know, at that time. So, in this country, I think, in general, Indians we were well accepted. I don’t know, respected or not, but again, respect came later on. I mean, at this time, if you look at the people, the reputation of Indian doctors is very high up. So that, it happens, you know it doesn't happen, you had to prove yourself. And, again in our profession also, we knew that you have to maybe prove extra step, whatever you do to beat those people. 00:00:00.046 --> 00:58:45.046 [SD]: Can you talk a little bit about what extra you had to do or talk about your first promotion and what you had to do to achieve that? 00:00:00.047 --> 00:58:45.047 [US]: Well, when I came here, I was--the first thing I did residency here, finished that, in 75 I moved down here in this area, Joliet area. The point I want to make is another, which is, I had lot of opportunities. I could go 150 miles from here and I was offered a practice, half a million dollars, the guy was moving out, says (inaudible). But that city called Eureka and we were going visiting there, and you pass through the main street, you don’t see the hospital, you don’t see, you’re out of (inaudible). So, it was such a small place. To my wife, she’s the social person, that was important that she should have that connection and the people. And again, we felt that the social (inaudible) in UK, we were socially deprived. So, you come here, that’s part of a life the social is important, so we didn’t. You know, one time I had an offer in Hawaii, flying in a local plane from Maui to Oahu somewhere, and a lady was sitting next to me. And we started talking, you know. And she said, “Oh we’re looking for a surgeon you know. Why don’t you come and we’ll offer you a job.” I said, “All right.” And she offered a good money (inaudible). But, what am I going to do? It’s a small hospital. She (inaudible), “Oh you will have wonderful life, you will get done by lunch time, you can spend the beach in the afternoon, the beach,” things like this you know. But that did not interest us, because we are not beach people. And besides, I was not doing much there. And I was young and ambitious, I wanted do more, learn more, and achieve more. So, that was not for me. 00:00:00.048 --> 00:58:45.048 So here, I started here in Lemont with a group and then I stayed there and I kept on adding my skills, my specialties, and it is ongoing process, you never really stop learning. So, it’s ongoing thing and even the big change in my field in 90s, which is called minimally invasive surgery. And I adapted to that very quickly, early. And that benefited me. And the difference was, big surgery, you go to hospital, you stay in the hospital. This was now being done at the outpatient. With the little tiny holes rather than, you know, okay. So I did that. I was instrumental in developing that trauma program at my hospital. We became a level two trauma center and I was chairman for that. Anyway, I kept up, you have to kept up until the end. Before I retired, I was Chief of Staff at Silver Cross Hospital in Joliet, and I still run into people who remember being my patient, (inaudible). So, it was a very rewarding experience in the career I had, so I have no thing. Politically, again, no complaint about it, but initially as the time went by, we saw more and more acceptance and now it's run by people, I think the 50% plus staff is now foreigners. I won’t say Indians only, but the foreigners. Well accepted, nobody questions what you name is El Mohammad or your name is Umesh Sharma, nobody cares anymore. 00:00:00.049 --> 00:58:45.049 [SD]: So, were you ever home sick throughout these years? And can you talk about the process of communicating with your family back in Kanpur? 00:00:00.050 --> 00:58:45.050 [US]: You know, we always thought about my family in India, but we had lot of limitation. One of them was the financial limitation. After I left India in ’69, in UK we didn't have much money. After two and a half hours, years, and coming here, we did not have enough money to go to India, I wanted to take a trip to India. At that time, we didn't have too many options, even the phone call if I want to make, expensive and then connection was not there, you have to book a call, things like that. So it was not really a very practical. And, the only, the mail letter will come. And my sister got married, I could not attend that, I felt bad about that. So, the first time I went back to India was after 7 years. And even at that time, I had to borrow money to go to India. And other thing in our culture, we had a pressure, now you got to go from here to visit, you have to buy present for everybody. And I remember we had a list of 110 people, had things they had to buy, because all the kids, you know. My wife is like that, she has to think that way, she has to think for the people in the family and all sort of thing. She say, “How can you go and see somebody, their kids, and not give any present?” So with that thinking, you do that, so that was seven years. As the time went by, I think connection was always there, emotions and the feeling was always there. My brother and sister, but then I started going every two years for years. And until even after my parents, my parents were alive, my father died ’93, we will go and visit him every year, spend time. And my mother died actually within six months, mother died before I left, so we’ll visit all this. So, we had made connection, in fact I'll meet my family had a good time with them. And my younger brother, I saw some opportunity that he deserves still better what he was doing in India. So, I said, “Okay, we’ll see we can get you here.” And we were able to get him here. And so I'm happy about that. 00:00:00.051 --> 00:58:45.051 [SD]: And you said that you got married before you came to the United States. Can you tell us about your wife and how you met and got married? 00:00:00.052 --> 00:58:45.052 [US]: It's an interesting story which people even if I tell them, they cannot even think about it. I got married without seeing my wife. 00:00:00.053 --> 00:58:45.053 [SD]: No pictures? 00:00:00.054 --> 00:58:45.054 [US]: No there was a—okay, again tell you, I was doing residency and my father and mother would send me some picture, time when I go, to show me some pictures. So, her picture was one of the three or four other pictures. So I didn’t know which was that. So, I really didn’t want to get married at that point the life. Because my thing was, I’m doing residency, let me finish it. My parents saw opportunity that good family, good girl, get married. I remember my mother saying, Get married, you can continue education, and you can do this. Some of the things like this. I shouldn’t use the word trapped, but when I got engaged, my wife's brother visited me in my medical school, just like this. And he’s a surgeon, so. So we had connected, (inaudible) So he had information I (inaudible) I was coming from Kanpur, like every other weekend, I would show up there. And my brother, “Are you coming this weekend?” I said, “Yeah.” So, I show up there and I show up at 12 o’ clock. Not at home. I go and see a movie, 3 o’ clock. And with my friends, when I get done 6 o’ clock, I go home and already my wife's brother is there with the other people, my family, there are relatives there. What’s happening? You’re getting engaged. 00:00:00.055 --> 00:58:45.055 [SD]: Did it feel like an ambush? 00:00:00.056 --> 00:58:45.056 [US]: It’s like ambush, yes. And then, I said, “I'm not ready for it.” I didn't say yes or no. So now, the whole, all the family, uncles, trying to convince me, It is nothing wrong with this, go should an opportunity, good girl, you can continue, the same story. And my choice, if I say no at that point, I'm going to dishonor my parents, my family, and all kinds of thing. So, I went through that okay. And I'm glad I did **laughs** So, what else you asked, so, I got married and there was a period about now I say that actually we dated after marriage. Because I was in Lucknow and she was in Kanpur. And we visit every few weeks or so. And then, after I did a MS, so I had a better room without any--so she will stay with me for few months. That went on until we came to UK. 00:00:00.057 --> 00:58:45.057 [SD]: So, how long did it take for you to be comfortable with your new wife? How was that process of getting to know her? 00:00:00.058 --> 00:58:45.058 [US]: **laughs** I'm still not comfortable **laughs** 00:00:00.059 --> 00:58:45.059 [JJ]: Which means that’s a good story. 00:00:00.060 --> 00:58:45.060 [US]: Life is a adjustment if you want to be happy, adjust, you have to (inaudible). You know, as a husband and wife, it took me little while. It was good, when you’re dating, for few weeks, you’re off and you’re on and off, that's a good thing about it. But after we move down here, to UK, you move on the life and then you expect different things, and we went through some hardships. And we were married by the time four years, five years. And we didn't have any kids, initially, we didn't want, but now we are having issue having kids. So, there was a time period, she got pregnant, all this, you know. And we had a baby boy who we lost because he had a, born with a congenital heart. And that was one of the most depressing times in our life, both of us. You think about, you’re young, that’s the end of the life. Whatever happens anyway. So it was a good thing when we moved from there, as I said, financially and other, this conversation, all these kind of thing. When we came to this country, it was totally different world for us. So it was really great. And this country has treated us well and I have no complaints about, you know. 00:00:00.061 --> 00:58:45.061 [SD]: And how many children do you have? 00:00:00.062 --> 00:58:45.062 [US]: I have two children, all grown up now, in their forties. I have grandchildren, three, so. So I’m blessed with whatever anybody can expect the life, more than that. 00:00:00.063 --> 00:58:45.063 [SD]: How long have you been married? 00:00:00.064 --> 00:58:45.064 [US]: I may be wrong, I think 56 years at least. 00:00:00.065 --> 00:58:45.065 [JJ]: And your kids, did they also go into the medical field? How is your relation with your kids? Parenthood in America, was that different? 00:00:00.066 --> 00:58:45.066 [US]: One, my daughter, she is kind of medical field. She’s not a medical doctor, but she's a psychotherapist. My son, I don't know I have to be honest. He moved on, he was in the music industry, was in Mumbai, working with the different musicians, all these kinds of thing. Then, he moved back and then got out of that and then he was with the another group which was developing programs for different businesses. That didn’t work out, so he’s working on making some apps and some programs, so. 00:00:00.067 --> 00:58:45.067 [JJ]: I guess my question is, you mentioned you didn't get to spend much time with your father growing up, so when you had kids, did you kind of try to, did that play a role in you being a father for them? Did something pull you back? 00:00:00.068 --> 00:58:45.068 [US]: It’s a very two-sided question. I miss that part and I was aware, but I could not do that either. Because that phase of life, you are devoting to making career, and your mind, it's not you. You are making for the family. You want to provide them a better life, better house, better things, better everything. So you have to work hard, there is no other shortcuts in the life. So, you have to sacrifice some part. And you know, the kids as they grow up, they’re young, they’re fine. Then they become the teenager, they depart from you, disconnect from you, and then they move on. Good thing is that I am catching up with my grandkids. Grandkids was the time I did not spend with my kids directly. But, I don't know really how much difference it would have made. I think the emotionally, that part is of course there, that made difference, connection, but I don't really know. You do the best which you can give in situation. So, I think my kids, they providing us opportunity to catch up with the grandkids. What I can do now, watch my grandkids, and how they're growing up with the things, the activity, I didn't have time to do it when my kids were kids. 00:00:00.069 --> 00:58:45.069 [SD]: What were the differences in raising kids in America versus your own experiences growing up in India? 00:00:00.070 --> 00:58:45.070 [US]: You talking about my experience here or you're not talking about in India or no? 00:00:00.071 --> 00:58:45.071 [SD]: When you were--what were some of the challenges of raising kids in a new country? 00:00:00.072 --> 00:58:45.072 [US]: In a new country? 00:00:00.073 --> 00:58:45.073 [SD]: In America. 00:00:00.074 --> 00:58:45.074 [US]: You know, my experience will be my experience. My kids’ experience will be different. So, you cannot compare, but my experience, it was tough. And when I say that is tough, I watch now, my kids, we’re living together. My son, my two grandkids in here, in the same house. How much support they have. How much luxury they have. We did not have that, we were two people, financially, we were kind of, you know, we’re still making, and we had one daughter. And forget about going out and eating in the restaurant, but I remember downtown, there was Indian restaurant, we both went out to eat. And my daughter, she will keep on crying. We could not even sit and eat both of us together. So luckily, it was towards the late in the evening, so the, one of the waiters said, “Okay don’t, I’ll take.” So he took her out to quieten down while we could eat the dinner. We were, kind of, it was not easy hardship, everything you build from the scratch everything, it comes, you own a house, it comes with problems of the house. The ownership comes with the responsibilities. And you have to take care of that. But we did okay. The raising kids, I think the system here is great in this country. I think the schooling is taken care, of course. There’s a part of education of the kids, which the parent have to do. Maybe we left behind a little bit on that, because—and I compare with some other parents, my friends who had a routine. They were involved in their studies and day-to-day activities. That when the kids come home from school, the first thing they have to do is finish the homework. We didn’t do that. Maybe because of that, whatever it is. But what I'm saying is I did not have that, but the parents have to get involved in the kid's life, education part, actively. Another experience I want to mention that, is that when my kids were in grade school going in eighth grade until, they were going to in Homer Glen, there was a southwest of Chicago suburb, they were the only non-white kids. And that affected them a lot. 00:00:00.075 --> 00:58:45.075 My daughter was a honors and you know, in the third, fourth grade and everything. When she moved there, actually she was upgraded one grade up there. But because she could not deal with that and they reacted different way. Other experience, her class kids treat her not well. They’ll call her brownie. She became introvert after that. While my son, he became extrovert by doing some mischievous activity, so they get attention, make lot of friends, things like this. But the both were the two extremes, so. So after eighth grade, I had to take them out and put them in a private academy, Morgan Park Academy. Where there are all kinds of kids. So, when I took them out from there, they felt very comfortable there. But, the thing was that, that was about half an hour drive from our place. Somehow, the bus was not available. So, I mean, we had to drive back and forth. So the after-school activities of the kids, we could not participate as much. At least I will go this side, so we could not get involved in other activities as much as I would have liked. So I think that, discrimination at that point, for the kids also, they affected. So, after that, went their own, whatever they want to do. In this country, another thing is, that the kids’ education, kids more listen to their peers rather than their parents. I'll give you one simple example. My daughter, when she finish college, what to do next. And she wanted to be in this field of psychology and I said that, you know, Well, go to medical school, become a psychologist. Become MD. Psychiatrist. And then you can do the same thing. And, she of course, hesitation, Oh this, this, I’m not interested (inaudible). I said, “You know, when I went to medical school, half of the subjects I didn't know much.” But you cram just to get through. I say, “You remember only what you use later on.” But she was more (inaudible) no, do what you want, you know what your heart desires. That is, you have to do that. So I think the peer telling her, do what you want to do. So, she decided that she went to psychology, which is fine. But I’m saying that, in general here, generation, in--I think when we were growing up, I think we either listened to them or we didn't have too many choices. And we, we didn't have our own opinion, my friends were not telling me what to do. So, I had to listen to my parents and my uncles whatever, the well wishes people were. 00:00:00.076 --> 00:58:45.076 [SD]: So, I'm hearing a difference of values maybe between your generation and your children's generation. How did you teach Indian values in America to your children? primary education is starting from Montessori to first standard, we had several vernacular groups, classes, in between. So, for four years after Montessori, I was at a local Gujarati school, local Parsi school, primarily for girls. And, so they would that take boys until they were about 8 or 9 years of age and then we moved on to a boy’s school. And so, I was there at the Parsi school, our community school, close to where we lived, for four years till I was age of 8 or so. And then moved on to another same kind of school, missionary school, called the Don Bosco High School. St. John Don Bosco. And they had a school that was newly opened, when I first started there. And that's where I graduated from high school, we call that secondary school certificate, SSC, at that time. So, that is my earlier scholastic life. inaudible 00:00:00.077 --> 00:58:45.077 [US]: You know, interesting question. And that is that we tried, more we tried to teach them Indian values, more they revolted. We were talking about, we tried to teach them Hindi at home. No interest. And, incidentally my daughter when she started going to school, we were trying to teach that, Oh this is pani, you know. And then the teacher called, I don’t she is saying, she’s saying water pani. So, it’s confusion. So, I said, “Well, just drop that,” you know. And part of it is us, because we were not talking our language with the kids at home. So, they distanced that from learning. Even though, my daughter she's taking classes so many times, you know, this. But, she didn't catch up with that. The values are something I don't tell the kids—kids learn by what we do. What we do, the values, they learn by that. Our Indian culture, what we wanted to do they took it like, they revolted against that. And of the things they were dealing with was, they wanted to assimilate and mix with a American kids. So, to them, if their friends would walk and we were watching an Indian movie, they would not like it. They would turn the TV off. Not only that, we’re going in the car, I wanted to listen some Hindi songs, they didn't want it. They want to put some English song. So we went through the long phase there. Then of course, once they go out of the house to college, that’s different story. And they continue in the same way. And I think, I feel is that, I hope it's a different generation now. They're experiencing different, okay. But, I think my generation kids, they went through the phase of so-called identity crisis. They wanted to be American and acted that way, but it took them to realize that they are Indian, they will be Indian, after, when they grow up little bit, when they 20s and 30s. So even though they do whatever they want you, but they have to find a balance between those two. But, they've accepted that and they came back and then, started showing interest in Indian values, cooking, festivals and things like this. So, I think, our generation was exceptional because we were new immigrants. And the new immigrants were exposed to different things. But, I think now the younger generations, they are more settled, more accepted, they’re more comfortable with their confidence in the personality and acceptance in society. 00:00:00.078 --> 00:58:45.078 [SD]: And what about religion? Were you able to practice your religion in the United States and how was that like? 00:00:00.079 --> 00:58:45.079 [US]: You know, we are not very religious person, in the sense, I personally believe in some high power but I do not believe in gods that you have to go and worship and do this, this kind of thing. My wife believes it. And I go along with that. So, we celebrate all the things, Diwali, all these kind of things, and we do with the kids all these kinds of things. And we teach whatever it is. But as it is, I believe more special part of thing what you do day to day life, (inaudible) whatever it is. But I'm not believe in rituals. And again, my kids, I don’t think they have a, truly that way they, now we’re trying to teach the grandkids little bit about the Indian gods and goddesses, and all this kind of thing. But, I think, in general, we have, we kind of stayed back on that. … 00:00:00.080 --> 00:58:45.080 [SD]: What do you like to do in your leisure time? 00:00:00.081 --> 00:58:45.081 [US]: I have simple definition now. I don't want to do anything I don't enjoy. So, that's after retirement, I have, I’m fortunate, that I have enough hobbies to keep me busy. I have been to music since I was a kid and I still persuade my music. In the morning, when I am home, I spend at least an hour trying to vocal, improve my voice, and learn, which I didn't do it when I was young, and again any of the activity when you're young, you learn it, the basic, the ground, you start from there, you learn from that, you do well. My second hobby is photography and I have done lot of it but again, without learning. But it was for fun. I travelled a lot, and my travel and the photography goes together. So, if you look at it from photographic point of view, it is more like a documentation I have in such-and-such place. But lately, I have gone to little bit more, but I do whatever I can with the time. Recently, I'm connected with a photographic club. So they send me information. And few months ago, summertime, they sent me information, I went for, it was a full moon rise over Lake Michigan. And we went there and my wife also went there with the iPhone and we had a wonderful one hour, you saw the whole moon rising like this. With the location, goes up there. So that was a good experience and opportunity. Photography doesn't happen, anything it doesn't happen by itself. You have to plan and prepare for it. Besides that, I love playing golf. So, I still do that. I'm not into watching TV, not into watching movies. I do not want that. I’m getting lazy so love to sleep in the afternoon **laughs** 00:00:00.082 --> 00:58:45.082 [SD]: You said that you sing. So is there anything you want to sing? 00:00:00.083 --> 00:58:45.083 [US]: I don't know. One of the thing is, I sing with my, with harmonium. It's a good thing, it's not a good thing. I have become so much dependent on harmonium that I need that base to sing that. So, it is not something, like, you know. 00:00:00.084 --> 00:58:45.084 [SD]: Anything else that you want to add that we haven’t talked about your experiences in America, or staying here in this country? 00:00:00.085 --> 00:58:45.085 [US]: I think it’s a great country for the opportunity-wise. But, you have to work hard, stick to it, and you have to be focused. One other thing is that people, lot of times they are educating when they don't know what to do. So, they wander around here and there. And again, there’s so much time in there. If you early enough, you can decide what you want to do. So, then you can focus your time, energy in that direction to get somewhere. And people who don't know, try this, try this, try this, you know. So, it takes much longer time to get somewhere. So, I think clarity, thinking, and stay focused, putting efforts gets you somewhere. I think the best thing was when I got into medical school, and I tell you, I didn't know what I want to do. And then, even medical school we have so much choices but you want to, I didn't know. But, I became a surgeon by exclusion. That means, what I didn't want to do. And I just, want mention, going to the medical school, some subject, I hated, Anatomy I hated. But after medical school, I got first duty. And I was student, I finished residency, okay. And I go to the hospital on call, that day. And there was a case I remember that changed my life, this what I decided what I want to do was a accident case, in which a young man 35 years old, going on a scooter and with the tong or something coming from other side. And he got accident and that, half of that, went into chest, the right side of chest. And, of course, it was a big, ribs all broken. So, he came to the hospital and, I remember, it started 9 o’ clock, we had to open to stop the bleeding, so you open the chest up, took out part of the lung, and one of thing I remember is that he had a wristwatch. And his strap of the wristwatch was embedded in the lung. Because the lung was damaged, take it out. So that's one of the thing. So, the team worked on that, and then still bleeding, so you open the belly, took the spleen out. So what I’m saying, that experience, I said, “He’s not going to make it.” I follow, even though he was not in my service or something, but I followed it for about six weeks. That guy walked out of the hospital. Then I said, “That’s exciting. That’s what I want to do.” Did well in the places, it went by. 00:00:00.086 --> 00:58:45.086 [SD]: Well thank-you so much. 00:00:00.087 --> 00:58:45.087 [JJ]: Thank-you 00:00:00.088 --> 00:58:45.088 [US]: Thank-you 00:00:00.089 --> 00:58:45.089 [JJ]: Dr. Umesh Sharma 00:00:00.090 --> 00:58:45.090 [US]: Thank-you for taking me back to my memory lane 00:00:00.091 --> 00:58:45.091 [JJ]: Absolutely, it’s a pleasure. And thank-you so much to our interviewer for the day, Shrashti Dear. This is Jitesh Jaggi signing off for the National Indo-American Museum.