WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PETER ALTER]: Alright. This is an interview being conducted on 03/26/2025 by me, Peter Alter, on behalf of the National Indo American Museum. Sir, if you could please state and spell your name. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MICHAEL KURUVILLLA]: Absolutely. Michael Kuruvilla. First name, Michael, M I C H A E L. Last name is Kuruvilla, K U R U V I L L A. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Excellent. Thank you. And as I mentioned before, we turned on the recorder, if you could, please tell us, where were you where you were born. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in September, 1982. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Very good. Thank you. If please, tell us a little about a bit about your family of origin, your mother and father, and any siblings you might have had. Sure. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So I have you know, I'm thankful and grateful. My parents are still here. My father, John, his name is John Kuruvilla. He is 73, born in the city of Kothayam, Kerala in India. He is the son to his parents' names were P.K. Kuruvilla and Sousama Kuruvilla in India. They were farmers, and, he is one of, five siblings, three, two brothers and two sisters. He is, of all of them now--it is, it's actually just him and his brother that are still, still alive. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 What else? My mom I think we, we're at--my, my mother's name is Selena Kuruvilla. She is--I'm embarrassed now--Hold on a second. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Approximate times. But since you have the notes--Yeah. That will, that will get all the factual information. Sure. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So she's 65, or almost 65. She was born in Borneo, actually, to her parents and but then moved to also in Kerala, India, but it's the, the town is called Mavelikara. And I, of course, just brutally, you know--messing up the pronunciations here--but she spent her childhood there, and then she's one of three, or she's got two siblings, two brothers. They're both here. One's here. One's in India, actually. Yeah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And then the, and then for me, personally, I have it's myself, and I have a sister. I had two brothers, but in between my sister and I, actually, but one passed in the womb, and then the other brother had severe medical complications and passed in within the first two years of life, actually. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: So yeah. Okay. Thank you Sure. Very much. So do I understand that you're the oldest? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: I am. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Yeah. Alright. Very good. Could you insofar as you know it from sort of the family information, your parents' decision to come to the United States and Chicago in particular? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. Sure. So if I starting, I guess, with my, my father. So unique kinda circumstances in how he was able to have the opportunity to be here was through his oldest brother. His oldest brother and actually it was his wife. Many of at least in in from the, you know, Malayali and South Indian community immigrated here through the means of nursing. And so his oldest brother's wife immigrated to Canada, actually, in the mid-sixties and, pursued, you know, nursing and then brought her husband. And then eventually, that was what provided the pathway for, my dad's middle brother, who is the one who's still alive. He also came his wife was also a nurse. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, but my dad came, by way of his older oldest brother that was in Canada. Spent a little time up there, but then eventually came to Chicago. His middle brother wasn't actually in Chicago. He, they were in, actually, southern Illinois, Carbondale area. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So, actually, my dad ended up being alone in Chicago. But what ended up being the reason was for his education. So, he has a master's degree that he got in, in India, in Kerala for, History. Yeah! And then, and it's actually ironically, his brothers were, his oldest brother had some law enforcement ties back in India, but then he chose academia when he came to Canada. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And the middle brother had military ties, but then when he came to America and to the United States, he actually pursued seminary eventually. So, but my father pursued, so he had History in India. And then once he came here, he actually went into Accounting. So, he went to Roosevelt University in Chicago, got his bachelor's in accounting in 1980, and, and really survived on his own, until, marriage. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Mother, as I mentioned, so born in Borneo, her father worked for, the Shell Gas Company, Petroleum, or whatever that is. And, that's why that's why they were over there. Mom and then, they all moved back to India, but then her mother is actually the first one that immigrated here. Actually, in the 1970s. And then my mom, after she finished high school, and then a little bit unique for her, especially in that generation, she came here right after high school and ended up doing her bachelor's degree in Pharmacy. And so she was a pharmacist when she was working. And she and my father married right out of, you know, college for her. And, yeah, that that's their background. *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Uh-huh. And so it sounds like your mom and dad met in the US and Chicago. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: They did. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: And that's, especially at that time, kind of unique. Where they were, like, you know, pseudo arranged. They were introduced to each other, but they were provided the opportunity to, you know, essentially get to know each other and both were, you know, mutual as far as, you know, yeah, we, we they, they loved you know, liked and they eventually loved each other and wanted to be married. And they married here in in in Chicago, in in Chicago. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Very good. Thank you. Could you just tell me tell us a little bit about what your life was like growing up in the Chicago area? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. So as I mentioned, you know, born 1982, born in Chicago. In this we, we lived very briefly in the city of Chicago, around the Humble Park area. Until I was approximately three years old. At which point, they were, I think, for that time looking to move out. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And we ended up in Buffalo Grove, and so far north suburbs. And ended up being there for, actually, my entire childhood. So we, we moved once, but in within the suburb of Buffalo Grove. Frankly, for the education, school. The high school that I went to, Stevenson, Adlai Stevenson High School, you even then very well ranked. And education was, you know, as is often common amongst particularly the Indian community, very elevated and highly sought after. That's that was the kinda driving force for, for being there. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Also, you know, my, my background, and largest connection to the community, to the Indian community, was through faith. And so parents both being of Christian faith, Protestant, we you know, in in both religious or faith based as well as culturally, that was a huge connection for us. We were part of, it's called the Chicago Mar Thoma Church, out of the main campus, I guess, out of Des Plaines. So from Buffalo Grove, not too far, maybe about, about thirty minutes or, or under. Probably where I spent most of my weekends growing up. But, yeah. You know, you're asking about childhood. Right? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhm. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So, you know, I was fortunate. I had kind of this blend of, I think, a lot of, you know, "American culture" and Indian culture. You know, my friend my Indian friends kind of jokingly and affectionately said that I was the, "whitest Indian person they knew." 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: I think also because my parents were here earlier on. They just they just assimilated a lot more or had the opportunity to do so. And they just and I and I and I'm thankful to them as far as just the open mindedness and opportunities that I had to really just be immersed in, American culture. And, I mean, that's I mean, I was born into it. So but it made it easier for me as I navigated childhood and even into adulthood and probably partially why this was acceptable for me to pursue this profession that I'm now in. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But yeah. I mean, you know, I don't know how I suppose that, you know, the definition of normal can vary, but I do, you know, relatively traditional upbringing. You know, as I did mention, though, what was a significant part of my early childhood, though, was around the age of 6, 6-7, actually, 7 years old. My mom and dad had, you know, the, the-- she was pregnant with twins. One you know, my one brother, his name was Matthew. He, he passed in in her womb. The other brother was named Joshua, and he was born. The medical term, microcephaly, but at that time, the term, you know, severe, you know, severe...seizures and unfortunate brain development, you know, and all of that. So he, he only survived for, you know, just under two years. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, of course, as probably would be expected from most, it was a very, significant of course, for them, probably the one of the most, myself as well. At that age, not fully aware of everything that you're, you know, encountering and facing, but looking back, you know, and as especially now as an adult as a parent myself, you know, I just I realized how much they went through even just, just the, you know, the sadness, the trauma, the grief, all of it. But it was also a significant point for us that brought our family to, I think, just a groundedness to faith, like, in in a more in a more personal and real way. I think that experiences like that really push you one way or the other, and it and it pushed them towards, you know, the church and, and all of that. After Joshua passed, you know, we were over--I was overjoyed to hear that, you know, they were, you know, they were pregnant again. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And it was my, my sister. My sister's name is Sarah. She is almost nine years younger than me. But we are, especially now, much, much closer. I was kind of like a pseudo parent to her more than I was a sibling. But, but, again, as we've now in adulthood, we have a much more, much more closer sibling type relationship. And, and she's actually still in Chicago area as well. Teacher and settled down with her own family now, two kids and her husband. So yeah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Great! Thank you. I wanna go back to something you said about spending most of your weekends at church. Could you describe what that was like, your, your faith life as a person growing up? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. Yeah. So as I mentioned, you know, grew up in the, it's called the Mar Thoma Church, similar to, like, the Orthodox and Lutheran, denominations. You know, vibrant church, you know, it drew people that were part of that, you know, denomination all over Chicago and actually even beyond Chicago. There were, if I remember correctly, there were families that even commute there to the church for, you know, both social and, you know, kind of events and church events from, like, Indiana. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So, so a very vibrant place. You know, there was a connection that I found with, know, frankly, some of my even to this day, my, you know, best friends, you know, because we, we had similar and I think that's what it was. We identified with each other because we all had kinda similar upbringings. We were, you know, born here trying to, of course, you know, embrace everything that that comes naturally to us because this is the culture that we are, grow growing grew we grew up in. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But at the same time, having parents that are you know, that that, you know, have deep connections to their country of origin. You know, probably there's some sadness and grief on their parts as well of having to leave all of that. And so, you know, trying to just the best of both worlds. So, so that that there was there was a comfort, because there was a...a familiarity and a and a and a and a, you know, we shared all of us shared in that. So, you know, naturally, I think and we would commiserate. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 We joke, especially in adulthood now. I've I think we, we can laugh a lot about the things that we experienced, you know, the rigidity of, you know, of parents, particularly towards education. You know, whether we will like it or not, you know, what like I said, cultural events on a on a regular basis. And because it was mostly tied to the church, you'd have, you know, faith component to that as well. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, you know, I look back and feel very privileged for the opportunity that I had to have that because, it really provided a, you know, a very familial environment beyond my own nuclear family as well as, just a safe place to grow up. You know, the world can be very harsh and cruel as I could certainly attested my role and, and position today. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And I look back on that, and I'm just I'm very thankful for, you know, twenty plus years that I had to grow up. And, and truly the same I could say actually about my wife as well. Even though we didn't grow up in the same church, she grew up Catholic, in the Catholic Indian church. But she is a very even though we didn't and we didn't know each other till college. But we have very similar upbringings because of what these cultural and faith-based communities were able to provide us. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm. Great. So especially for imagine folks listening to this of all different knowledge levels. Folks in your congregation, they like, the young people you commiserated with, their families were from Kerala, for example? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yes! Yeah. The majority. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Uh-huh. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Right? I theoretically, you know, the families could have, you know, been from anywhere in India. But the majority of Christian, you know, faith Indian Americans are, and actually beyond that, you know, we're, we're called Malayalis, you know, are from the southern state of Kerala. And so the majority of the people that we, you know, you know, we're, we're in, you know, relationship with and all that here, we're all from there. But you get here and there people from Mumbai or other places within from India and, I suppose, beyond. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm. And you mentioned cultural celebrations at your church. Could you-- what were some of those cultural celebrations? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. You know, I, I think there was acknowledgment of, you know, India's Independence Day, and other, you know, significant, you know, national type holidays and whatnot. Again, for us at in the, in the, in the growing up though, a lot of it had more to do with, you know, your significant Christian holidays. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But it was still an opportunity to, you know, dress up, you know, especially for the, the women to dress up, you know, traditional Indian, you know, apparel, *laughs* outfits. Men, you would more often than not wear more of a blend. And I personally was always wearing like a you know--But, but growing up, I remember wearing shirts and ties, suits, where these days, it's *laughs*. If, if we were to go to the church or any of these kind of events, I don't know that that would necessarily be the case. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: True. True. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: But I've seen a general, I think, kind of move towards casual in in in most, you know, facets and capacities now. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: So what was life like for you in school, you know, elementary through graduating from Stevenson? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. You know, it was I was, again, very fortunate. I consider just my--Everything I had growing up, I mean, I was very fortunate and blessed. I mean, good school system, good community. You know, it, you know, it was, it was tough--in, in-- when I I use, I try to use the word "tough," *laughs* you know, carefully, in the sense that, it was tough only because, you know, there was, especially at that time-- Just, again, navigating cultures, navigating-- But, you know, I had an, frankly, an innocence that I think I didn't realize that, you know, whether it was people that didn't understand me, because of, you know, whether it was background or faith or, you know, any of those things. But I don't know that I was, fortunately, I don't know that I felt, you know-- 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I'm trying to think of the right term. Adversity, I guess. I didn't I didn't feel it overtly. But I think there now I look back and, you know, you do a lot as I get older, I find myself doing a lot more reflection on things. And, there were there was a there was a, certainly a need to, I think now I realize, to prove myself. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And I again, I it could be for a number of different reasons, so it doesn't just have to be anything cultural. I'm a, I'm a shorter in stature individual. Right? I'm short. *laughs* And, you know, looking through my life and maybe, again, at my educational background as well, I realized, like, "Okay..." That's something that's probably been part of who I, factoring who I am to this day. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So, anyways, that being said, I had a good upbringing. I had a good, you know, academic upbringing. You know, I had, so I had my friends from the Indian community that we would see on the weekends, but I had my neighborhood friends as well. And those were kids of varying, you know, you know, race, ethnicities, religions, all of that. And so I look back and I think to myself, I had a very, I was fortunate because I had a very balanced world even socially that is. And where, some kids would have no connection to the community, and there were others that were like only Indians all the time. *laughs* And that just wasn't, and I'm again, I'm very thankful that I had a blend of all of that. So. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: In terms of language or languages spoken at home, did you how did that work with you and your, your family of origin? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. So maybe that's why, you know, a lot of my Indian friends growing up, the guys that I childhood friends, they say, like, about how I you know, they saw me being kinda different because, very Americanized. My parents, you know, they speak Malayalam. But to me, to my sister, I mean, it was probably 95% of the time they were speaking in English. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I actually, frankly, you know, kind of a unique thing too. When I was born-- So my mom-- A lot of my generation didn't have grandparents here in the States. They'd only see their grandparents in India. I would see my dad's parents when we would go to India, but my mom's parents were here in Chicago. Because, like I mentioned, her mom immigrated here and all that. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 When I was-- When my mom was pregnant, that time particularly, but I suppose it still happens today, they were talking about giving me a more traditional Indian name, and, as in my first name. It was her mother who said-- so even on her mother's, you know, in her parents' generation, they were say her family was saying, "You're here in in America, in Chicago." You know, her mom was encouraging her. Give him a name that will allow him to assimilate and integrate easier. So that's why they chose Michael. So I was very-- So, my grandmother was kind of in that camp, and my parents, I think, also, you know, kinda helped perpetuate that as well. So the question was? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: About languages. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Right. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Yes. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So and so yeah. So that means the reason I say that is I'm, I'm one of the worst when it comes *laughing* to having the ability to speak--I, I don't speak fluent Malayalam. I can, I can barely get through? I understand it, which is a little bit infuriating because I can, if I hear it, I know what people are saying, particularly if they're saying something about me. And I but I lack the ability to be able to respond back in a in a, you know, coherent and certainly in a in a more, yeah, collected response. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: What was it like for you having your, it sounds like your grandmother, your mom's mom, from India sort of in your family circle. What was that like? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Again, unique, but in a good way. You know, I, that's where I get to, in a sense, though, share with, you know, my American core counterparts because I got to have a grandparent in my life. And, you know, she actually lived with us for a time. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So my grandfather passed, around the time my brother was born. And so, at that point and with his significant special needs, my grandmother lived with us. And so I had a few years in which I got to, I mean, I literally live with her. So she, was you know, it was it was it was great. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I got to hear her stories and just get to know her. She eventually moved back to India and then actually did end up passing away when she was in India. Well, actually, at the time, I was actually in India myself, actually, on a on a trip, like, as well. So I was I had the privilege of being able to attend her funeral and say goodbye, you know, formally. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: And, you mentioned your trips back to Kerala. What was that like for you, those trips? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: You know, special and, you know, again, a lot of I've looked back on a lot of all of that with the with the fondness and even just a sense of thankfulness and gratitude now because, again, I realized the sacrifices my parents had to make financially, their time. I mean, that that's not a short trip, and that's not something you can do in a weekend. So, you know, you they gotta take off. They probably, you know, banked and burned out all their vacation just to do that every you know, for and then you'd come back, and you'd have nothing left for the year. Right? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So, we used to go on average about every four years or so. So I've been you know, I don't remember it in my earlier years, but I do remember, you know, at least the last two or three times. And, yeah, just a, you know, a very unique-- it's not at your traditional vacation. We would go and almost entirely stay with family. We weren't staying in hotels or, you know, five-star kind of experience. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, again, it all helps, I think, in forming who I am now and having an appreciation for, you know, the, the privileges and just the life that we have here, when we would get to go and spend, you know, a few weeks at a time with both sides of the family. After childhood, I did it one time with my best friend, actually, another oh, another Indian *laughs* Malayali guy that I'm still he's still my best friend to this day. We went on a on a, you know, kind of we called it a, you know, exposure mission, type side trip, but it was, like, a lot of be the opportunity to see the social injustices of the country. So that was a very eye-opening experience at the age of 18. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And then beyond that, unfortunately, I've only made it one more time, but I did it was I do, again, find it a privilege to the fact that I was able to do it with my wife, her family, my family, we all went, and my oldest son. And that was in 2013, so we're now at twelve years. I do hope to go again. I know my wife definitely wants to again, but life has you know, it is tough at this stage of life right now, particularly, you know, where we are with our kids. They're just you know-- and her profession, mine, it is it's it right now, it's a little bit of a heavy lift, but I think we both foresee ourselves hopefully being able to return and, you know, see some other parts of and other sides of India as well down the road. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm. So when you were there with your family, maybe cousins and 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: What was that interaction like? The kid from the US and folks from South India? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yeah. You know, *laughs* I'm sure there's a lot of laughter and a lot of, you know, hopefully, not judgment. I don't think so. I think they were I've always, you know, sensed a kindness and a love from our families. But yeah. I mean, especially with my you know, the language piece that was a challenge for me, it was hard to bond in a deeper way if they didn't know English. Now mind you, I would say the large majority, particularly cousins, they did. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 The one person that I think it kinda broke my heart that I was never able to fully communicate was my father's-- my dad's dad, my grandfather. He did not speak English. And so I understand-- It was just the, it was you know, he would, he would speak words of kindness and love towards me in his way of that generation and age group, but I wasn't able to kind of, you know, we weren't able to have that kind of a conversation. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 If I remember correctly, I think my grandmother did understand, you know, at least understand, and so we were able to have some conversation. And then, like I said, my mom's parents, it was it was I mean, completely, you know, they both lived here even. So we that was a very different and more traditional relationship. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Through, your schooling, did you participate in any curricular, extracurricular activities? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Growing up? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Yeah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yeah. I did. So, *laughs* as I mentioned, you know, I I didn't have the size for, you know, getting into *laughs* you know, successfully getting into competitive sports. And I think I figured out by the time I was in my teens that that just you know--And, again, people whether it's my officers here or my friends that used to live-- I, you know, still, they, they joke like, "He, he's just" you know-- I just use the general term of sports because *laughs* that's my understanding of things. But I but I did, you know, have the opportunity to be richly involved in other things. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And, you know, I think it started kind of with the church, as well as with, you know, my parents wanted me to have musical, you know, talent or abilities. So, you know, I was in the choir there. I think I did some musical stuff in school. I ended up learning the guitar at home. And while I'm, you know, kind of disappointed to say I don't, you know, kind of engage in that as much these days, it one of those things that I just I cherished having the ability to just express myself in my, you know, late teens, early you know, in my twenties. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I still have the guitar, and my kids see me play it every once in a while. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But so I had that, you know, involved in things like debate team, peer mediators. I suppose a lot of the things I was involved in really kind of was a foreshadowing of the things I do in the future because, you know, kinda having an interest in in sore sort of, like, law arguing *laughs* and then and then also the helping part. Because, obviously, that's, that's the route I went first, very much then using that to, you know, serve in what I do today. So. Yeah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm And, I know we've talked a bit about your, like, faith and the church you went to. It sounds like perhaps you were involved in maybe youth group and, and other things at your church. What was that like for you? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: You know, I again, I think a place of acceptance, a place of, you know, acceptance, belonging, certainly, you know, giving you a sense of higher purpose You know, protection at that age, and, and, you know, not to make it not to make it sound like that wasn't important from the faith side. It absolutely was. But also just the relationships that I was able to, you know, create and certainly the ones that sustain to this day as a result of that. I'm not as connected to the community the way that I was at that time. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Life has its way of taking, you know, you people in different directions. And, particularly, you know, now it's, it's my wife, my kids. My job is a huge you know, I consider it a huge responsibility and, and entrustment. So those are kind of the, the top things. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, but the people I grew up with, the friends not just my best friends, but even, even just I mean, all of them. There's just a fondness that we all have for each other and our shared history. Many of them, I still see at least once or twice a year. And when you, when we do, it's just it you know, maybe that's you know, there's a level of that with anybody you grew up with. But, again, I think because we all bonded even as children over our shared culture and experiences, there's a continued sense of, "We get it." And now we get it because we're also we're now raising the next generation. And we're all doing it in in similar ways, similar challenges. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so there's just this continued understanding of things that, you know, maybe my peers that are not from, you know, the community, the culture, India, or whatnot. They just there's this not that, that complete level of understanding. But it gets easier. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I mean and I think with my children's generation, it'll be even easier than that, particularly in my own family. But I'll explain that a little more later. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Alright. Very good. Yeah. So what year did you graduate from Adlai Stevenson High School? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: 2001. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Yeah. And a question that I mentioned I would probably ask when we were talking before I turned on the recorder, where did where did life take you after that? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure! So life after high school for me, both by parental expectation, but also by my own desire was further education. So, you know, I, I graduated high school and then went immediately to college. I went to the University of Illinois at Chicago, UIC. And actually roomed with my best friend in the dorms for the first year. We then made our move to the, an apartment with some other friends, you know, maybe not coincidentally or coincidentally. So, you know, college was also a large part of that. I ended up being with, with other South Indians, Malayali people that I you know, now not just the people I grew up with, but people that I met. It was actually in college where I met my, my wife. *laughs* So actually, we met probably, like, the first day of being in in the dorms. So we didn't we didn't get together till after college. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Ah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: But yeah. So, you know, wen, went to UIC I suppose, again, from a cultural perspective believing or, or with the anticipation that I was going to follow a kind of, you know, pathway that most, you know, young Indian people were expected to follow. You know, I'm, I'm pretty sure I must have said "premed" at some point, if not engineering, both of which I think I almost failed. *laughs* And so that was those are pretty clear indicators that those were not the that was probably not the profession for me. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But nevertheless, I remember I went in undecided, you know, liberal arts, and then started to kinda find my way. As I mentioned, I was you know, I now I look back, and it was pretty obvious, I think, looking backwards, that I had this-- I did know that I wanted to work with people. I just didn't know how I was gonna work with people. And so I was thinking about it from the focus of medical, and that didn't work out. Like I said, engineering was just a blip. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, I think I looked at, you know, other professions that were people focused, people driven, eventually landing on realizing I, I liked the psychology side of things, the, you know, understanding people, you know, from that component. And then UIC was known for the Jane Addams College of Social Work. And found that there was a program that I was able to get into. Their bachelor's level program that if you were to complete that, you could actually get also complete an accelerated master's program. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So I was fortunate. I, I all of those things, all those stars aligned, and I was able to get my, you know, get my master's degree by the time, in five years total. Right? Undergrad and grad school. So and that's why I stayed at UIC for grad school as well. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And, yeah, graduated with my MSW in May of 2006. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: I was a social worker for about six minutes *Peter laughs* and then like, a true social worker for about six minutes. And by July of that year, I got-- I got the offer, and I joined the Brookfield Police Department. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Oh, wow. Okay. So very close to after graduating with your, your master's degree. Yes. What was you've described your sort of educational path through UIC. What was your social life? What was it like living in the dorms and then later with your, your friends on in an off campus apartment? What was all of that like for you? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: You know, a very enjoyable and memorable experience. Although, I, I have come to realize probably, again, not exactly typical or traditional of what I think of, or what I've you know, even friends nowadays or, or whatnot, what they've experienced from a college. Now mind you, UIC is known, or was known, I don't know about it today, as a largely, commuter campus. And so, you kind of by its, just its nature and infrastructure, didn't have that Big Ten feel that, you, you know, you'd get from a University of Illinois in Champaign. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, but, again, kind of a cultural slash faith based, college experience with, you know, people from, you know, largely from Kerala. But, at that point now, we were also meeting people from other parts of India as well because the Indian community still kind of, beyond the Malayali and the church side of things, we're would still gravitate towards each other. So, you know, had friends of varying from varying places. But, again, kind of this almost this, like, safe place of people that we, that we had--Because it, for me, at least, it wasn't the traditional what you think of with colleges and partying and all of that. We had I mean, we had fun, but it wasn't, again, the way that we the way that I had, I guess, envisioned it from what I had seen on movies. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, you know, it was a but, again, I look back and I think to myself, it was I was fortunate because, you know, I was able to focus on my academics. I, I had a great time with friends. As I mentioned, my wife and I met. We weren't we were not in a relationship at the time. We got to know each other, and, you know, it was it was again, looking back, we've been together for almost twenty years, so it's very sweet the way that we were able to-- We were really truly friends first Because our because all of our friends were friends. And so, yeah! And--but then outside of that, we had a lot of normal, you know, kinda, I guess, traditional experiences, you know, of all cultures and, you know, again, American culture. You know? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And we had the city, but we're all broke, so we couldn't really enjoy it for maybe the higher lifestyle. But we certainly enjoyed, you know, going to, you know, Maxwell's *laughs* for Polish sausages late at night and, you know, getting to just experience the different parts of Chicago. So it was that, those things were pretty cool. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Very good. Thank you. So, you mentioned along the way that you were drawn to sort of people-helping, people-centered professions. What pushed you in that direction, do you think? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: I'm trying to, like, psychoanalyze myself here. But-- 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: *laughs* It's a little bit of it! 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: You know, I'm sure it my parents are you know, I have just the most admiration for-- And, and, you know, frankly, my sister is a teacher. You know? So we both kind of pursued people-helping professions. So, there's no doubt our upbringing had a lot to do with it. I think, for me, you know, and for her, I think, on, even just the--what we went through with my brothers. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 You know, my, my mom particularly would you know, she continued on in wanting to be amongst and kind of help people with special needs, particularly after that. Both my parents are just they're helpers. And I think they modeled that, and, and I saw a satisfaction that they that they got from, from helping other people. And so I think those things kind of imprinted on me. I mean, again, frankly, my aptitude wasn't there for the, you know, the higher sciences and math and all of that, but, but I found this immense sense of, you know, gratification from helping people. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Again, at that time, I don't think I realized it, but looking back and I've been told, especially as I've come up into the role and, and place I'm in today, that that I do appear to have *laughs* a higher level emotional intelligence and, and being able to, you know, just see what people are, you know, hopefully feeling and their needs. And so, you know, when you're when you're when you have that positive reinforcement of when you're helping someone and they and they, they do feel help and they respond affirmatively, I'm like, "Okay then. I think this is something I wanna do." 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And, coincidentally, once I had chosen, I think I had, at that point, chosen social worker. I was just about there. I got involved in volunteering on a crisis hotline in college, where, you know, you just man the phones. My wife, who was also going through the same maybe academic identity crisis, was also finding that this was kind of, about to find out that this was the pathway she wanted to go in as well. So as friends, the two of us joined, volunteered at this hotline together. So jokingly, the friends are like, this is where they're hopefully not dysfunctional, but their love blossomed through but, but through helping people. Right? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so we were on this crisis hotline together, and then I realized for sure that this is the pathway I wanted to go in. She was thinking the same. Now where I where I kind of had this, like, tension or, or but not so much now as I look back, but at the time was, "I want to help people through this counseling and social work angle." But at the same time at that time, I remember, you know, when we would go to study at coffee shops, when I worked my part-time on campus job, I would see Chicago Police the University of Illinois at Chicago at Chicago police driving around. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And I was always, in fact, in- in- interested, infatuated, I guess, some respects, with law enforcement. Now, culture and growing up, that wasn't an option. It wasn't that I was told that it wasn't. It was just not something to be talked about, and I didn't know anybody in it. And so for me, I looked at that with a sense of awe. And, and, again, I think it's the way I'm wired. Besides helping people, I'm a, I, I have a-- I'm a person that has a deep belief in right and wrong and, you know, in a sense for people to have justice served. And so, again, at the time, it was almost a tension, but really it wasn't because I've, I've really married the two, obviously, at this point in my life. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But I, I was enamored with it, the law enforcement's profession, but at the time, I had no idea how to even get into it because, again, I didn't, I didn't have anyone at that time to look to or ask. There were a few. We call them trailblazers into the profession, but I really didn't even with as much community connection as I had. And then my one friend that was already that, that that I did grow up with from the Mar Thoma Church had gotten on with Chicago Police Department. And so he was kind of my in *laughs* as far as, "Hey. Can I do this? Is this really something as an option to me?" 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And, of course, he tells me, "Absolutely." Like and, you know, explained the process. And, then I think I, I was in grad school at the time when I started to-- And by that point, I was also with my girlfriend, now wife, and telling her what I wanted to pursue, and she was in support. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so, I started testing. Because that's how you get into law enforcement. And so, I started testing at various agencies. There, the Illinois State Police, and then, frankly, because I didn't know where--this area of Brookfield, at all, growing up in Buffalo Grove, living in Chicago. But, and that's where I think, for me, at least, you know, there's a-- I appreciate, you know, looking back and just knowing that, "Hey. There's a, there's kind of a plan to all this," even though I didn't have full control and knowledge of what it was gonna be. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So I applied here, applied to a couple other communities around here. And, and actually here, and the State Police called me up at the same time. And yeah! *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: You said you were a social worker for about six minutes. What, what six-minute job was that? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Coincidentally, here! *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: *laughing* Okay. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So, again, I tell you, there's a lot of things that just you just never see how things will fall into place. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: But so clearly, I was, I was realizing that I wanted to pursue something in a, in a in a, hybrid almost sense, because I grad-- I had my graduate degree in social work. I actually did my graduate studies in in, gerontology and aging population. I had seen the hospital side of things as well. I thought about schools for a moment. I actually tried that in my, in an internship in my bachelor's, but everything was not-- None of it was hitting to the point where I was like, "This is, this is it. This is where I'm gonna stay." 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And then I, I believe it was actually a connection of my wife's older sister. She was a, she's a doctor, and she had, she was affiliated to the, you know, healthcare network, I think, Resurrection at the time? But there was a behavioral health outpatient center, mental health center out of Melrose Park that was looking for a police crisis worker. Prior to that, I had done some social work, hospital, like admissions, and I was having interactions with--out of actually Swedish Covenant Hospital--And I'd have interactions with Chicago police bringing in people that were, gonna be, you know, evaluated for involuntary psych holds. So, I was I was probably seeing that this is kinda the way I wanna go. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And then this job comes up that was for police crisis, a police crisis worker, social workers and or, you know, technically, psychologists that would then service the communities of and frankly, Brookfield, Riverside, not Riverside-- But Brookfield, North Riverside, La Grange Park, and many other communities in and around this area. And there was a number of social crisis workers that would get, you know, pushed out to different places. And they, they, not knowing that I, and, frankly, I didn't tell them that I had, you know, I was thinking about becoming a police officer. But they said, "Mike, you're gonna work in, Brookfield." 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so I'll never forget being brought here, probably in, I don't know, June or May or June. It was only about six minutes as I mentioned, and being introduced to, the chief, who was my first chief, by my supervisor or trainer. And, the chief goes, "I know who this kid is." And she's like, "How do you know him?" And he goes, "He's on my list to become a police officer." And the cat was out of the bag. *laughs* And it, and, I mean, I said six minutes, but it was actually about six weeks. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Oh, okay. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: And in about six weeks, they called me. And, unfortunately, I had to make the decision to leave there to come here. So. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm. And what was that transition like into police work from six weeks of social work, but also the rest of your life before that? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. You know, it, it wasn't easy, largely because, I didn't fully know what I was getting myself into. But, you know, but, fortunately and as I sit here and I re-- you know, rethink and relive it, I mean, it was it, it was confirmation as I went through the police academy, as I went through field training, as I, you know, began to establish my career as a police officer, it was all affirmation that, you know, I had I had made the right choices, the right decisions because, it was, it was gratifying. It was, I was able you know--I felt that I was helping people. Now don't get me wrong. It was a lot of-- I was kind of an enigma, frankly, I think here because, you know, at that time, we were not terribly diverse, just yet. We've come a long way in the last twenty years here. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But at that time, not, not so much. Also, I think I was probably the first person or one of the-- particularly of, of a new hire in in the profession, especially in this area that, had a master's degree. And so--and that being in social work, I think they people just didn't know what to make of me. But I think they realized soon after that, you know. They used to say, "This kid." *laughs* You know? "He's solid. He knows what he's doing. He's, he's got the right, you know, heart and mind for it," and all that. So 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Mhmm. When you made that transition after six weeks, what was the reaction of your, of your family? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Oh, boy. *both laugh* Hopefully, they don't listen to this, but-- 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: No. I'm kidding. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: They, again, I think I think a lot of it has to do with the fact they just did-- They, most of us didn't know what this profession really was. You know, I'd gone through a little bit of turmoil with the family as far as what we have thought, you know, the "prescribed" pathway of, to a profession, and I didn't follow that. Social work was also a little bit of an unknown, I think, for my parents because my like I said, I mentioned, my dad was an accountant. My mom was a pharmacist. I don't think they fully knew what that was going to net or yield either. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But being completely honest with you, I mean, especially at that time, you know, financially, and I don't know if I've said this clearly, but my wife is a social worker. So, you know, we were engaged by that point, and we're both looking at our finances and just the, the, you know, the projection to the future and thinking, this is gonna be tough. And I did recognize right away that law enforcement provided a, a more of a cushion for us. And so there was the sense that that made financially. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, again, frankly, my parents didn't understand. And, you know, again, I hope my dad's okay that I'm sharing this, but his only experience, or their only experience with law enforcement, not in any criminal capacity, but from getting pulled-- if you get pulled over. *laughs* Like, that that was their-- that was the extent of what they knew of this profession. There's this story that, you know, beginning pulled over-- 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I mean, as I've mentioned many times now, we, you know, grew up in church. So we used to go to, you know, a, it was called a watch night service, on New Year's Eve. And, so he'd be returning home late at night. So, I, you know, my parents are talking at you know, it's 01:00 in the morning. We're driving home, and my dad gets pulled over. Minor traffic violation. And, but at that time of night-- Because now I'm on this side of things, on the professional side, know, police officers are looking for who's, who is, you know, in an impaired state. Of course, he was not. But that experience, I think, soured him in the sense that-- Nothing happened, but it was just a matter of that's what he knew of police officers. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So there was some, some resistance, some, you know, frankly, concern. And I don't know that I would, at least to my recollection-- It was not straight out disapproval, but it was just a, "Are you sure you know what you're doing here?" *laughs* Needless to say, they have completely changed their position on things now, particularly in the last couple of years. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And, and, I mean, both my parents, my wife's family, all of our family and friends, I mean, they're incredibly supportive, incredibly I'm-- I feel I almost feel like too much when they-- They're just, they're very proud of where I've, where I've come. And I it's and it honestly is thanks to all of their support through all to get to where I'm at today. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Thank you. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yeah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: So, after training and so forth, what was your first rank and your sort of your career traject--pathway to now? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. So, I mean, I'm, I feel privileged in a sense that, particularly as a leader here, I've risen through the ranks. I've, I've, you know, I've stepped at least in in sometimes shorter periods into every position that, our department has to offer. So when, theoretically, when an officer says, you know, whatever that their experience or their challenges are, I, I've been there. I've done that. I was an officer. I spent a short amount of time as a detective. Several years as a sergeant, patrol, a road sergeant, and all of the shift work. I've done all the shifts. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And then, in early 2019, you know, obtained the rank of lieutenant. And then by the end of that year, it was a shorter time, we had retirements and my chief, the chief that's right here before me, chose me to be his deputy chief. And so I became the deputy chief of police here in the, towards the end of 2019. And by 2021, summer July, so we're almost at four years, you know, chief at Petrak, he announced that he was gonna retire. And he was mentoring me, and he was training me and saying that, you know, obviously, it wasn't his decision. But he was, you know, he goes, but he goes, "I wanna set you up for success as best as I can." 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so he, you know, imparted all of his knowledge and experience that he could into me. And frankly, he continues to be to this day a friend, and someone that I can always, you know, pick up the phone and talk to if I ever need to. So, very fortunate for that. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Very fortunate for all the people that I have on my team and in my life. You know, just glowing support, thankfully, and I and I'm very, very appreciative of my board, of my manager. I mean, coincidentally, my board-- Some of the board members are people that that swore me in twenty years ago, you know, almost twenty years ago. And they're here today. So they've also had an opportunity to watch me, quote, grow up here. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So, yeah, it's a, it's kind of a, it's kind of a family feel. You know? Particularly just the way this community is. And even though I don't live here, my family spends all of our holidays and much of our free time here. Probably as my boys are getting older, not as much to their happiness, but they're great sports, and they will you know, we come here for everything. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And but we just we enjoy it. It you know, it and I'm again, just can't say enough how thankful I am, my wife, particularly. If I didn't have her, if I didn't have the way that she supports and props me up, I don't know how I would be doing this. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: And you mentioned the board, that's a reference to the village board of Brookfield, Illinois. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yep. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. Great. What is it over the twenty plus years, what has it been like being a police officer and to your current rank in Brookfield, Illinois? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: You know, it's there's never a dull day. I can say that for sure. I'm, you know, I'm very yeah-- And I'm not trying to oversell it, I do truly believe that I have this, I have a I I've been given this privilege, and an entrustment, and that's the thing. And it maybe-- not maybe--I'm sure it has, you know, much to do with the way I was raised culturally, religiously, my experiences, all of it. I take this, this entrustment and this role very, very seriously. If you talk to my team, they'll tell you he's-- I don't know what they'll say *laughing* exactly. But they'll-- But a lot of it has to do with just the commitment. And because I'm you know-- Whether, again, whether it's that that that Asian Indian work ethic, sometimes to sometimes to, you know, frankly, to some detriment to my own self and to my family, it never stops. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I can, even when I'm not physically working here, I'm, you know-- And I think that's probably most people in leadership. But I, and, it can certainly go beyond that. But I'm always thinking. I'm always thinking about, you know, my community, my department, my staff. You know, a lot of time I spend thinking, "How do I make this place better?" 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 You know, I'm fortunate I have a good department. I have, you know, good officers, professional, integrity filled. And at the end of the day, at their hearts, they wanna go out there and serve and protect and be police officers. And and I and I'm very thankful for that. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 My job is, "How do I make their job easier? How do I make their job better? "And so I spend a lot of my time thinking about that, thinking about the future. How do I, you know, train up? You know, we we've, we're, we've become a very young department. I was blessed and given this entrustment at statistically, at a younger age than I think most chiefs. So, you know, while, and-- I think the community is, you know, feels a sense of security and confidence knowing that they have me for the long haul, nevertheless, before you know it, you know, I'll be at retirement age. Or we, my team and I-- And so our job, I believe, is being good leaders is also thinking about the future. And so that's a lot of the conversations we have internally. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Lots of conversations externally. Like I said, I have a great relationship with my village president, my board, fortunately, and my village manager and and that team. And there's a lot of that and a lot of communications outward, to the community. I hope I bring something different to the table. I think I do, both my cultural background, my academic background. My boss, my manager always says, like, he looks at, he says, "You're, you are leadership and the, and the chief of the future." He goes, you know-- 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 There there's kinda, there's a there's this, this image or this, you know, concept of what police chiefs were leading up to, you know, recent years. I don't I mean, frankly, *laughs* I don't fit that, you know? As far as what you, what people what most people traditionally thought of as the leader of an organization. But I hope, and I and I really strive to bring that blend of both. Because I need to also lead with strength and lead with, you know, competency, of course, and and professionalism and all those things that are needed both then and now. But, I think a lot of-- We, we have to look at things much more holistically today than we did, you know, than what was naturally done twenty years ago. Whether that's on a mental health side, whether that's on a, you know, serving, you know, diverse communities. That's, I think that's what I bring to the table, and I hope I'm doing that well. *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: What are, in your estimation at this moment, what are some of the biggest challenges that that your you and your department faces here in Brookfield? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Boy, probably the same challenges that all of law enforcement's facing right now. Frankly, staffing is a huge, huge challenge for everyone across the country, even beyond, internationally. I'm you know, I I read things from the International Association of Chiefs of Police every day, and it's-- We, we we're all struggling. In recent years, there's been a lot of, you know, good changes, but also things that have that have probably soured a lot of young people that would have previously maybe chosen this profession to want to pursue law enforcement. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I think also just, you know, times have changed and with the opportunity for so many people, young people to to work from home and have professions where you don't have to suit up *laughs* literally and figuratively, you know, there's there's less of an attraction to this type of work. There's still great people out there. What we're finding locally, and, again, I think it goes well beyond just this area or well beyond even Chicago and Illinois, is we're all fighting all for the same small group of people now. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Where, when I when I started, you'd see hundreds of people show up to orientation. You'd have well over a 100 people take a test. All of that to end up an eligibility list that wouldn't even you may never even get a call from them saying that, "Hey. Your your your number is up. Your you know, you we have a opening for you." 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 Today, we're lucky if we get a 100 applications taken in a smaller sized department. And we're and we're like I mentioned before, we're, we're all we're all kind of battling for the same because we all want good people. And so we're all battling over the same group of small, you know, of small group of people. It it is it is tough. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And as I mentioned, you know, we're we're just we're constantly faced with, you know-- Technology has brought us to a place where everything's real time now. Everything is in prior-- I mean, you know, when I started, we still had flip phones. So, you know, if you take a video of something, it was all pixelated. And, again, I'm not, it's not a bad thing. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I, I lead from a place of accountability, transparency, and integrity. Those are those parts of life and community is great. The first thing I instituted, before it was a state mandate, was body cameras. It was my it was my area of study for my, staff in command, my administration class. All of that has served us well because, again, we were doing the right things to begin with. Now we're able to just elevate and spotlight that. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But, it does-- It changed the job for for older officers as well as the ones that would prospectively come in. They realize it's, it's-- There's a lot more scrutiny to everything that we do. And, unfortunately, a lot more a lot more, there's there's a lot more litigation that goes on today or at least that that we're seeing. Again, everything is more public now too. So you just you hear about it. You see it. It just feels there's a heaviness that that officers-- And I, and I, I'm burdened for my staff because I know that they carry that, every day they go out the door and answer calls, they know. It's not just someone calling and complaining about them to me. There's so many more ways to make things complicated now. So, and fortunately, I don't, I don't get a lot of calls. *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. I asked you about sort of your family's reaction to your transition into law enforcement. Within the larger Indian American community in Chicagoland, I know you said maybe you're not as connected, but when folks realize what you do for a living, how are, how are people reacting to you within that community? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Generally, very supportive. I mean, I'd say, actually, all I've always-- I don't know that I've ever really received criticism for it. You know, like I said, I've been almost twenty years. So I think at the beginning, because, like I mentioned, my buddy, his name was Oman Sliva. He's Chicago police officer. He, he was probably-- That beginning part of, you know, officers that were were beginning to to be in the profession. At that time, for all of us, it was just the unknown. So, there was there was a there was a kind of an awe in a sense towards all of us, but at the same time, people just didn't know. Over the course of the last twenty years, I mean, we've seen and not just South Indian Malayalis, but Indian people across, you know, you know, all the way north, *laughs* all over from India, from all over India that is. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: I see. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: --joined this profession. And we've now, you know, really-- It, it's a much more common thing. But, to answer your question, I actually received an enormous amount of support. Enormous amount of support from the community. I mean, I was I was, floored when, when I, when I made chief. Frankly, I wasn't aware that I was one of the first Indian Americans to become a police chief in in history. At that time, I don't know what the numbers are today, but at that time, I was told I was the first of five to ten, in the country. At that time, in in the Malayali community, I was the, I'm the first. And so, you know, a lot of, a lot of fanfare, a lot of-- I was overwhelmed. And I was overwhelmed with the for the position as well. And so, it wasn't that I would I-- I certainly hope I never offended anybody. I wasn't trying to be distant. I was just very, like I mentioned to you before, to a fault, I'm just laser focused on my, the leadership and the responsibility here. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But I was and I I'm just somebody that struggles with *laughs* to-- I'm sure it may be again, it's somewhat hard to believe because I am in a very public facing position, but I can do that when I have when I have a task or a duty at hand. When I'm getting fanfare for just, "you're the chief of police," I, I feel very sheepish. I feel very you know, it's it's always very awkward for me to be like, you know, "Here I am!" *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so, you know, I had the privilege, and I, and I've been a couple times to the consulate for their, you know, Indian Day celebrations or Independence Day celebrations. It it's a huge honor for me. It's been a huge honor to be invited to a few other cultural events, both faith-based and non-faith-based. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And, actually, in recent years, while it's-- So there's, the there's Asian American, there's Indian American societies for law enforcement. There's also now, what was created in the last couple of years, they, it's called the American Malayali Law Enforcement United. It's a, it's another nonprofit fraternal organization. It's actually what, and I know we're on audio, so you can't see it. But this, you know, this clock and award was given. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Oh, interesting. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So, you know, these guys and the community itself came out. I mean, when I got promoted, it's a small boardroom, but it was packed to the gills because I had officers, Indian officers from across the country fly in just to see me get promoted. I mean and as I mentioned, I look back on it. At the time, I didn't realize just how significant it all was. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 But now as I've kinda settled down a little bit, meaning I feel more comfortable with my role and everything else, even to do something like this I've just realized, like, yeah, it's a privilege. It's a privilege of all the support I've been given. It's a privilege to be where I'm at. And now I do wanna figure out ways that I can give back in a way that-- Whether it's being a mentor to young people that wanna, you know, come into this profession, Indian or not. But, obviously, I have something to be able to impart to people when especially if they're facing, whether it's family or community pushback. But generally speaking, again, I I think we're seeing less and less of that. I'm sure from, you know, you know, new immigrants, it, it's similar to what I my parents and my family was facing. But there's just so many more people that are in the profession now that it's not as much of an unknown. Yeah. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Alright. Thank you. And I know we're we're kind of coming towards the end, anyway. And you've talked a little bit around your friendship with your wife and being engaged and getting married. I don't think we have on the audio record her name. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yes! Thank you. I was gonna ask that. I want, you know-- Because I truly if it wasn't, if it wasn't and isn't for her and and my family--because there's all this stuff that brought me up and brought me to this point--but truly, what sustains me day to day, what what gives me hope towards the future of, of remaining, sustaining, and thriving in this, it's my family. And when I say my family now, it's my wife and children. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And so my wife's name is Sybil. And as I mentioned, she's also a social worker. She's a licensed clinical social worker. I am uber proud of her. She is-- Not just because of where she's gone to, but she's very good at what she does. And coincidentally, or not so much, that program that I told you I was in for about six minutes, she's now the director of that program. So in some respects, we're kind of like colleagues, although she'll tell you she's my boss, and she is. *laughs* But I'm very thankful for her. As I mentioned, we met in college. We've been together since 2006, or '5? Okay. Well, *laughs* we got married in 2007. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Okay. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: So, we've been married since then, and I'm very, very proud of my children. I have the unique privilege to be a father to two boys. My boys are adopted. And my oldest is almost 14, and my youngest is almost 7. And through adoption, our family has changed in the sense that we are now a transracial family as well. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 So there-- And, and I'm sure that plays partially into-- While I am deeply committed to the community, I've also, beyond that, beyond professional, beyond my my, all of that--I, it's important to me--we have really made a concerted effort to ensure that our community today is diverse. Mainly because, you know, it's all for my kids. And and that's that again, culture, that's how I grew up. Family. Family. Family. And so it's very important to my wife and I that we provide our family with just a comprehensive experience. And so, you know, I have good friends that we have near our home, that's of, you know, diverse cultures and different upbringings. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I still have some connection to community, the Indian community, the South Indian community that I grew up in. But we also, you know, whether it's through what we do here when we come on the, you know, weekends and holidays to Brookfield, we just we just really it's important to us that we just provide our family, our children, just with the most kind of eclectic and comprehensive life experiences as they can have. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 You know, my wife being in the profession that she is, with the overlap with what I do, you know, she gets it. There's honestly, there's not a lot of spouses, at least from what I've seen, that can handle, the demands that, well, her own profession puts on her. Because between the two of us, we have four phones. And, you know, and there's--yes. And there's, rarely a time where one of us isn't on some level-- And so I'm, I'm thankful because she she knows how to shape that. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And I'm sure a lot of that has to do with her upbringing as well. Her mom and dad are hard, hard workers. Her mom was a nurse for, boy, almost forty years. Dad was a, you know, a chemist and also from same area in in India and all that. And, you know, so she learned hard hard work ethic. She has that as well. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And most of all, she just, she's able to kinda roll the punches with me with what this job does. Because, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm I'm very, very blessed by having a strong team of leadership here that can that can handle much of what we do day to day without directly involving me. But, at the end of the day, the buck stops with me. And so, I'm, I'm like I mentioned earlier, I I rarely go a day or hours at a time without thinking on some level what's going on here. And it does demand that I be here at, at night or sometimes on weekends, or open up the computer. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 And my point in sharing all that is just to say, my wife is the one that is able to kinda keep that perspective, and give me the ability to do the things I need to do for my department and the village. And then, obviously, all that ultimately to serve my family. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 My kids mostly get it. I do feel bad sometimes because I, I think-- You know, my first part of my career, for the first thirteen years, I was on shift work. And my oldest, he experienced it where, you know, dad was gone at night, on the weekends, on holidays, because that's what the job the profession does demand of us. It's a 24/7, 365 job. But, but today-- Now, I you know, I'm fortunate, I get to be at all the events, but sometimes it's hard to be there. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: *laughs* 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Yeah. You know, emotionally, mentally. So, it's a work in progress. You know? I think I think I'm getting better at it, but it's, it's still I, I could tell you I'm, I'm still learning. And anything I can impart and and share with the future generations of all *laughs* race and creed, I'm I would be I would be happy to share that because I've, I've learned a lot over the last almost twenty years. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Alright. Thank you very much for your time. The last thing, is there anything that I didn't ask you about or that you'd like to mention for the audio record before we wrap up and, and turn it off? 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [MK]: Sure. The only thing I wanted to say is, just a thank you to the National Indo American Museum and, and just this whole initiative. As I mentioned before, I'm not-- I hope it, it comes across through the audio and all of this that I'm not an attention seeker. I'm not a, someone that that generally looks or finds these kind of things. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 I'm, I'm kinda blown away and honored by just the the desire for the organization to want to even do this with me. And I hope I hope that I'm, again, a representation, to this project and to the organization and to the larger Indian community. I feel like we spent a lot of time talking about South India, but, honestly, I do realize that my role and, and the profession and my position, it's a reflection to the entire Indian community. And I just wanna say "Thank you," because I do feel privileged to have an opportunity to do this. Most people don't understand that, you know, the weight. This is that rare, and you, you know, you're in this, you know, like-- So, not to belabor it. I just wanna say thank you and to your time as well. 00:00:00.000 --> 01:23:28.000 [PA]: Of course. Well, on behalf of NIAM, the National Indo American Museum, you know, the the board thanks you. I thank you for your time. I've certainly learned a lot today. And as I said, someone another freelancer like myself will follow-up with a transcript for you to review. And with that, I'll, I'll say thank you and and goodbye.