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[PROVIDENCE DUGGAN]: This is an interview with Dr. Ashok Patel as part of the Indo-American Heritage Museum’s Masala Chat Oral History Project. This interview is being conducted on December 12th at 10 a.m. in Dr. Patel's home. Providence Duggan, or, Dr. Ashok Patel is being interviewed by Providence Duggan of the Indo-American Heritage Museum.
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Okay, so, we’ll start with a couple basic questions to set the scene. And then, I'll try my best not to interrupt unless I have like a spelling question that I want to make sure for when we’re transcribing it. So, for this one, I don’t have to ask for the spelling ‘cause I already have it. Please state and spell your first and last name.
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[ASHOK PATEL]: A s h o k Patel, p a t e l.
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[PD]: And when and where were you born? Did you grow up in the town and city that you were born in, or did you move around?
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[AP]: No. I was in Nadiad, India.
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[PD]: And you didn't grow up there?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: Where did you grow up?
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[AP]: I grew up in Fiji.
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[PD]: Oh, that’s interesting. What brought you to Fiji? Just your family moved there?
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[AP]: My family moved there. My dad was a lawyer. And oldest uncle had a practice of law in Fiji.
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[PD]: What was your father’s name and uncle’s name?
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[AP]: Raojibhai, r a o j i b h a i Patel. And my uncle's name was Ambalal, a m b a l a l Patel.
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[PD]: And he was a lawyer as well?
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[AP]: Yeah.
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[PD]: Was their a particular subset of law they practiced? Or just general law?
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[AP]: General law.
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[PD]: And then, what languages did you speak growing up?
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[AP]: I grew up speaking Hindi, and Gujarati is my mother tongue. And Marathi, I was in Bombay in medical school, so.
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[PD]: And did you speak these languages in Fiji as well? I don't really know that much about Fiji, so. Do they have a different language over there that you got to learn as well?
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[AP]: No. I learned to Fijian in Fiji.
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[PD]: For while you were there.
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[AP]: Right. And Fiji Hindi is a peculiar Hindi.
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[PD]: I know, it’s kind of like Creole Pidgin or something where it’s combination.
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: That’s interesting. Do you remember any of it? Or just--
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[AP]: I speak Hindi.
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[PD]: And did you go to school in India for part and then Fiji for part?
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[AP]: Yeah.
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[PD]: Where did you go to school when you were in India?
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[AP]: I changed several schools. I went to 12 schools and two in Fiji.
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[PD]: Was there any particular memory that you have from that time and the different schools, or? It can be kind of a blur when you're going to a bunch of different schools. I went to a couple different schools growing up too, so I understand.
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[AP]: By the time I graduated from high school, I had changed 12 schools.
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[PD]: It’s like one school a year.
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: Were you able to get really close to any friends or anything growing up?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: Did your family, what religion did your family practice while they were in India?
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[AP]: No religion.
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[PD]: Your father, you said, he was a lawyer. Did your mom, did she have a career? Was she a stay-at-home mother?
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[AP]: No, she is home.
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[PD]: And do you have any siblings? And what were their names?
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[AP]: Yeah. Kumar is my younger brother and Latika is my younger sister. I am the oldest.
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[PD]: So only two siblings?
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[AP]: Yeah.
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[PD]: Were you guys close growing up? Or—
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: --probably since you were moving around, you had each other more than any other friends. **laughs**
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[AP]: Yes
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[PD]: Do you have any interesting stories from your life while you were in India or Fiji growing up? Any good stories from your siblings? Or memories that you'd like to share?
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[AP]: We wrote a book. My wife wrote a book and she is the one with me as the author. We were classmates in Mumbai, and that's where I went to college and medical school. And my wife was a classmate of mine.
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[PD]: Do you have the book still or was it—
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[AP]: It’s in the print.
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[PD]: That’s awesome. What kind of book was it? I know she mentioned she was a doctor as well. Was it a medical book?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: It was kind of like a storybook?
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[AP]: It's a storybook.
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[PD]: Okay, that’s cool. When did you come to the United States?
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[AP]: 1965
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[PD]: And then, what brought you here?
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[AP]: We were going to Fiji, in Buffalo, New York, from Fiji and a day after the Christmas day, in ’65, and the ground was covered with snow. It was a big difference from Fiji, which is a tropical climate. And we had no clothes to wear, no warm clothes to wear. So, we ended up for internship on the 1st of January. And the program director said, That you, to my wife, you cannot wear a sari. It's like a swimming suit. So, go back to Hilton, he put us up at Hilton Hotel in Buffalo. And don't show up to the hospital until you have warm clothing **laughs* right. And we followed this to a T.
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[PD]: That’s good. Good to stay warm. I’m from New York City myself, so I understand how cold it gets over there. And then, so you did your internship at Buffalo. And then moved out--
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[AP]: For two years.
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[PD]: And then you moved out here later on?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: What brought you to Chicago?
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[AP]: I came for my wife's interview with Cook County Hospital in Chicago, because we looked up in the internship book where all residencies and internships are listed. And we had limited time of her training, so we looked up where the training would be maximized and that is what brought us to Chicago.
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[PD]: And did you get married while you were still in India, or Fiji? Or did you get married when you were here?
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[AP]: No, we we're married in Bombay.
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[PD]: Are there any stories or memories from the wedding that you’d like to share?
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[AP]: Those were the days of war with Pakistan. And the government had decreed that 25 people were the maximum to be had.
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[PD]: At the wedding?
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[AP]: At the wedding. And we couldn't even fulfill the 25, because my dad was in Fiji and my siblings were in Fiji. And my uncle who was stationed in 300 miles north of Bombay, did not participate. And so was Daksha’s parents. I learned after that incident that Daksha’s parents had to pay a fine for marrying Patel community. So, that was the reason why the parents did not attend the—
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[PD]: ‘Cause they had to pay a fine? So, you had been living in America for a little bit when you moved to Chicago.
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: Did you have any expectations of America when you first got here? Or the difference between living in Chicago and South?
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[AP]: We liked the city. It's a very livable city. And the morning was over and I accompanied my wife as a spouse. So, they were so keen on signing her up that they arranged a hasty interview in the afternoon with the Department of Medicine. And they said, Paperwork can follow. And, the rest is history. primary education is starting from Montessori to first standard, we had several vernacular groups, classes, in between. So, for four years after Montessori, I was at a local Gujarati school, local Parsi school, primarily for girls. And, so they would that take boys until they were about 8 or 9 years of age and then we moved on to a boy’s school. And so, I was there at the Parsi school, our community school, close to where we lived, for four years till I was age of 8 or so. And then moved on to another same kind of school, missionary school, called the Don Bosco High School. St. John Don Bosco. And they had a school that was newly opened, when I first started there. And that's where I graduated from high school, we call that secondary school certificate, SSC, at that time. So, that is my earlier scholastic life. inaudible
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[PD]: Did you also get a job right away as a doctor?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: Do both of you have a particular specialty?
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[AP]: I'm in hematology oncology, and she's a neonatologist.
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[PD]: Did you guys have any particular challenges, besides the warm clothing when you first got here?
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[AP]: **laughs** No.
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[PD]: Did you already speak pretty fluent English?
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: Did you have anything that you noticed was a very big difference from living in India or Fiji versus living in America?
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[PD]: Yes. Because they had not heard vegetarian word. And their notion of vegetarian food left a lot to be desired.
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[PD]: **laughs** I’m sure, yeah. Well, luckily we've made strides since then, right?
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[AP]: Right. Since then. So, Daksha was starving until one of the attendings noticed that, I was a non-vegetarian at that time so I ate everything, and poor Daksha was starving until attending in Dr. (inaudible) pediatrician took pity on her and introduced us to pizza.
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[PD]: **laughs** (inaudible)
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[AP]: And, that was the only vegetarian food that she had.
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[PD]: Well, I like how they definitely have a lot more now. So, when you were settling into either Chicago or Buffalo, whichever one you have a better experience with, what was it like? Was there anything that brought about subsequent moves? I know that you said that you moved to Chicago for work and things like that. But was there any issues or any challenges with settling in, finding a place to live?
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[AP]: No. Because we were both at the County Hospital in Chicago, and they had provided living quarters.
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[PD]: And then, when you were ready to graduate from that and get your own place, was it anything interesting about that?
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[AP]: Yes. Because that was the year in ‘68 when we came to Chicago from Buffalo, and that was the year there were riots in the Chicago convention where Mayor Daley, senior Mayor Daley, had handpicked delegates, and they were dethroned. And there were riots after assassination of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King, in ’68.
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[PD]: Did you have to take any extra measures to stay safe during that time?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: And then, when you guys weren't working, I know that the life of a doctor, especially medical residents, is probably very busy. Did you, what did you do during your downtime, your leisure time? Was there anything particular that you like to enjoy yourself?
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[AP]: Yes. We have a sailboat for 30-40 years.
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[PD]: Do you have it parked right on the marina over here?
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[AP]: Yeah, it’s right, right. It's in DuSable Harbor, downton.
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[PD]: Did you do any kind of sailing, or boating when you were in India, or Fiji?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: Just acquired it here?
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: Do you have any funny or interesting stories about, you know, learning the ropes and living in America or anything like that?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: (inaudible) vegetarian more?
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[AP]: Right. And in 1968, we took a vacation to Yellowstone National Park. And we have the dubious distinction of being walked over by a grizzly bear. And I still think that we were lucky that we didn't get killed or mauled by the bear. And I'm now reading a book called Grizzlies and Yellowstone. And that is a chilling book.
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[PD]: They can get really big. Did you do a lot of travelling, when you were younger? Did you see a lot of the U. S.? Or was it just mostly little trips like that?
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[AP]: That was the first and the last trip.
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[PD]: After the bear, you don’t want to—
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: And then, when you moved to the United States, when you settled in in Chicago, was it easy for you to make friends and acquaintances? I know that you probably had some friends from work. Was it easy to make other friends outside of work and things like that?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: Were you able to like forge a community, did you hang out with other Indo-Americans? Couple different groups of people, or was there any?
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[AP]: I don't know. But, Daksha was at Columbus Hospital, this was a hospital. And she, after the residency and fellowship, she was the first neonatologist fellowship program at the County. And once she graduated from there, she moved to Columbus Hospital, which was operating in those days. It's no longer operational.
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[PD]: Is that the really big one by Rush University?
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[AP]: No. This building was Columbus Hospital.
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[PD]: Is that why you like to live here now too?
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: Memories. My boyfriend works by Rush, I just know there’s a big unoccupied hospital—
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: And then, as far as your work, did you get along with your co-workers? Were there any--
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[AP]: Yes. I was the chief of hematology at the Cook County Hospital for 31 years.
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[PD]: Are you a US citizen currently?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: What prompted you to become a citizen? Did you have to for work, or?
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[AP]: No. It's a problem, because we did not come to the U. S. as a refugee. We had always option of going back to India or Fiji. And there was no bar to either one. We opted for being in Chicago, in U. S., because the training in Chicago and Madison was superb. And we are fully licensed, both of us, in India and UK. And we never went back to UK or India to practice.
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[PD]: Did the U. S. just start to feel like home to you?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: Were there particular reasons or particular stories you have about feeling at home here?
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[AP]: I know. And it required a lot of acclimatization to fit into the U. S. society. And it was easy because of of the language. We spoke fluent English and both Daksha and I are fluent in English, so there's no problem.
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[PD]: While you were becoming citizens and settling in here, was there anything special that you did to preserve on your heritage or remember India?
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[AP]: Yes. To this date, we have a memento from India. The Taj Mahal is a replica of the monument. And that piece is a classic Indian.
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[PD]: I noticed you have lots of pictures of your kids around. Were there special ways that you helped them to get in touch with their roots and tell them stories about India and things like that as well?
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[AP]: Yeah. We have five grandchildren, and when they, my wife told them the real story about being walked over by the bear, they didn't believe it. And he said, Rohan said that, Ba, they call her Ba, is the generic for grandmother. And you made it up. And she is so well versed in making up stories that when she told them real story of the bear incident, they didn't believe.
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[PD]: When you were settling in, were you able to be part of a larger Indian Community at all here? Did you participate in anything, or?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: That’s fine, I just like to double check. Did you teach any of your children parts of Hindi or anything like that? Or did they grow up knowing a little bit of it? Or is it all English?
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[AP]: No. We had grown up as FMG’s, Foreign Medical Graduates. And we didn't feel that they were born here and should not be exposed to Indian cultures. So, we, my son went to Brown, and my daughter went to Northwestern, here in Chicago in Evanston. And they're both at the County Hospital in Chicago. And when they were growing up, I asked them, Now that you're going to be doctors, what do you plan to be in specialties? And they both independently said that they don't know what they want to do, but they know one thing, and that is not to be at hematologist-oncologist or neonatologist.
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So, my daughter is an obstetrician, and my son is an ENT surgeon. So, that reminded me of 30 years ago, my dad asked me if I wanted to, now that I was going to finish high school, there were no colleges in those days in Fiji, so I had to go overseas. So, the conversation turned to professions. And, he didn’t, it sort of remind me of the answer I gave to my dad, saying that, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm not going to be a lawyer. And that didn't go well with him.
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[PD]: He expected you to be a lawyer.
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[AP]: Right. And when I went to college in Mumbai, I had planned to be an engineer, and so when I wrote to my dad, after the first year, that I want to be a doctor instead. My dad was surprised enough that he talked to, and he didn't accept it, but being 9000 miles away, there were no choice. So, I had, at 18 years, my dad carried a lot of weight. And his older brother was my hero and he was a doctor and practicing general medicine in Nadiad, where I was born. He was older than my dad, so he was the youngest, my dad was the youngest of the brothers.
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And so he said, Well, don't worry, I will write to my brother. And he wrote to him saying that, what's the difference between an engineer and a doctor, he would still be a professional. And that argument didn't convince my dad. So, he went to the principal of my school, and my school principal wrote to me that, I don't know why you want to be a doctor instead of an engineer. You have aptitude in high school of mathematics. So, he was wondering why I chose to be a doctor. And to this date, I don't know why.
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[PD]: Had your wife already kind of chosen to go down that path? Was she influencing maybe?
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[AP]: She was gung-ho on being a doctor. Since childhood.
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[PD]: You two went to the same university together as well?
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[AP]: College. Yeah.
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[PD]: Are there any fun stories from back then before you moved to America? Or any memories from college? I’m sure you were working and being busy (inaudible)—
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: There was fun too.
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[AP]: **laughs* No. The first part of dissection was head and neck. The neck was the next dissection. And there were two partners, CC and I. CC is in Vancouver, he’s a doctor too. He's a pediatrician. So, second part was neck dissection. And our part was rotten. So, we had to join up with another group. And we chose Daksha and Nebula, who were partners. And that was a wonderful combination because, in those days in medical school, I wanted to be a surgeon, an orthopedic surgeon. So, I was interested in knowing the anatomy very well.
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[PD]: (inaudible)
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[AP]: And, they, Daksha and Nebula, had, being vegetarian, had no interest in dissecting. So, they read the book, and CC and I dissected the neck.
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[PD]: Team work
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[AP]: Right. And that is how I came to know Daksha very well.
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[PD]: That’s a nice start. …And, that’s how you guys first met and things like that? And then, were you kind of from different communities? I know you had mentioned that she's vegetarian, you're not, you're—
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[AP]: No, right.
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[PD]: Her parents had to pay a fine. How did you navigate that challenge of having a relationship with her?
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[AP]: We were different communities, and in those days, Patels didn’t marry Mehtas. So, we were from different communities. And in my family, the daughters were prevented from going to medicine because nobody would marry a doctor girl. And that was also true of Daksha. She was the first medical graduate from the community. That, she wanted to be a doctor because her dad was asthmatic. So, she wanted to be helpful to the dad. So, she had made up her mind from early childhood that she was going to be a doctor. And I was not. So. And I told you the story about my not being an engineer instead of a doctor. And I still don't know why I ended up being a doctor.
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[PD]: Seems like, you’re happy with your life with the best that you had.
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[AP]: Right, right.
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[PD]: So, let’s see. Any other questions from my notes. These are, so there’s some extra questions for the end. I don’t think I had one in mind, I'm just trying to think if I had a particular one. So, do your children still live in Chicago? You said they both work at the County Hospital.
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[AP]: They’re in Chicago.
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[PD]: Have you ever returned back to India to visit your family at all? Do you have a lot of contact with them at all?
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[AP]: Yes. Because, Daksha’s family, five brothers, she is one of, she has eight siblings. And I have only two. So. And my siblings are in New York and Philadelphia. They have migrated from Fiji to the United States. And the funny part was that I had to prove that my sister, who I sponsored, was my sister at all. And that was the first time I noticed that on my birth certificate, the name of the mother does not appear. It’s traditional that in the birth of a certificate of a child, the father's name appears but the mother's name does not appear.
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[PD]: Oh, so that made it tricky.
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[AP]: Right. So, I had to file an affidavit from my dad’s older brother, who was alive at that time, and that he was around for the wedding between my mother and my dad. And that he had to make an affidavit to that effect, that he certified that my sister was my true sister. Because the state department here wanted proof that she was my sister, right? So, we had to go through that whole process to learn.
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And that happened again at the time of my medical school admission, because traditionally my birth certificate does not have my name. The sex is indicated on the birth certificate as his father's name, but that is all. And there were reserved seats for medical school admission. Fortunately, I did not have to use that, because I was amongst the first 20 top students in the university. So, I didn't have to use that.
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[PD]: That’s good. Were there any other cultural hurdles like that that you had to get through for things like that?
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[AP]: Yes. … The other thing was that there were many cultural adjustments that we had to make are settling down in the U. S. In those days, Halloween was a new experience. Because we were at 1900 North Hudson, and children came to our house for trick-or-treating, and Daksha, my wife, did not know the background, so she--and they were looking for candies. So, she had none to give, so she handed out coins to them. And the next year, at the Thanksgiving, she had bought a whole bunch of candy to give **laughs** out to the kids.
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[PD]: Were there any other particular adjustments that you remember?
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[AP]: Yes. In those days, Thanksgiving was a new experience, as was Christmas. And as the kids were growing up, we had to use the Christmas tree. And initially, the kids are into the real trees, and so, as they grew up, they said, Well, we don't need to have the trees, because cleaning up after that was a chore. And the needles. So, they opted for electrical gadgets that still had a tree like configuration. And nowadays they don't even want a tree. **laughs** So, we don't have trees anymore. And now, they are grown up enough that we have left them to their devices. And they have their children to worry about, so, we are through with that.
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[PD]: I know that you mentioned early on that growing up you didn't really, you weren't super religious. Did that change at all throughout your life?
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[AP]: No. We have been atheist throughout. I went to a Catholic School in Fiji, and I turned out to be an atheist. My close friend-- we were eight in the class and in the high school, and I was always picked for a football team for loyalty, not talent. And when I went to college, I represented the college, both as an undergraduate and graduate school. I’m a left hand player, so there were not enough talent people, talented people to claim being on the soccer team, on the left wing. And one memorable incident, my younger brother represented, was truly talented, for soccer player, and so, I represented the medical college. And I played left wing and he was right on me, and I never, (inaudible), I never kicked the ball.
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[PD]: Did you have fun playing sports when you were a kid though, even though—
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[AP]: Yeah.
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[PD]: I’m not very good at sports either. Were there any—so, for like the early days of moving to America, what were some of the hardest parts or some of the best parts, or anything, stories that you’d like to share about? I know you’ve shared some already, I just wanted to see (inaudible).
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[AP]: When I wrote to my brother-in-law in Chicago about Chicago. Why do you have to move to a gangster town? **laughs** That is the reputation that Chicago has, you could move anywhere from Buffalo, and why, he was wondering, why you chose to move to a gangster down. And that is the reputation that Chicago has internationally.
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[PD]: Yeah, it’s definitely true. Even now.
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[AP]: And that was 30 years ago in 1968, 50 years ago, sorry. But that was the reason my brother-in-law, the oldest brother-in-law, she has five brothers and one sister in Mumbai. And two sisters are in Chicago, in Harrisburg and in Denver, they’re here.
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[PD]: You get together with them often enough for you to see them—
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[AP]: Yes. We were at the Thanksgiving in Cancun and we are going next month in Cabo San Lucas.
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[PD]: Are there any particular traditions that you have with your family when you visit them here or good stories that you always share with each other about, you know, your growing up and things like that?
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[AP]: Yes. The Raksha Bandan is where the sisters tie a thread around the wrists of brothers. And that is a tradition that stems from ages, and it's in Indian cultural addition that we follow.
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[PD]: What’s the significance behind that? Just family bonding, or? (inaudible) What does it mean to you too?
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[AP]: It does indicate the brother and sister’s love. And that is amazing because, siblings spend the rest more time than even the husband and wife, or parents and children. And any tradition that encourages the brother and sister’s love for each other is it tradition that is worth celebrating.
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[PD]: That’s really cool. And then I know you said that you did Christmas a little bit here. Are there any holidays from back home that you celebrate? Or any particular dates that you like to celebrate or anything like that?
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[AP]: No. For a number of years, we used to be on call at the Thanksgiving and Christmas time. Because unlike the traditions, the New Year, or Diwali, was never practiced in the U. S. And until this year when Obama the president celebrated Diwali in the White House, and that was a change for the better. Because of improving relations between the U. S. and India.
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[PD]: And even to just, you know, there's so many Indian-Americans who live here--
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[AP]: Right, right.
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[PD]: --traditions—
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[AP]: That is true.
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[PD]: Yeah, and did you kind of celebrate Diwali throughout your life?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: Are you going to start now?
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[AP]: Yes.
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[PD]: Are there any particular traditions that come along with that that you’ve done, you know, maybe when you were younger or anything? …
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[AP]: Yes. Because Diwali is the last day of the year, lunar year, and the next day is the New Year's Day. And traditionally, we would respect the elders in the family. And it was a tradition that we observed in India and in Fiji. But in the U. S., it's very different. And it took some time to get used to Christmas and Thanksgiving, leave alone Diwali and the New Year's. Until this year, when Obama started the tradition.
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[PD]: Is that something you’re planning to carry on from now on maybe? It's about celebrating a little bit more?
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[AP]: Yes. Because we were invited to have a Diwali celebration in a friend's place, who’s an oncologist, and a young oncologist, at Northwestern. And whose mom lives in Chicago and is an obstetrician. She raised her. And so, they had a Diwali celebration and we were invited, as was as my son and his family. And the dad had a tumor of the head and neck. So, my son took care of him, treated him. So, that was the--they celebrate this event for the last two years, and we've been a part of it.
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[PD]: That’s awesome. It’s always good to remember home, remember life—
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: I think that’s most of the questions that I have unless, is there anything else you'd like to add or talk about? Anything that you'd like to make sure the future generations know before we--
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[AP]: Yes. My dad had the dubious distinction of fighting the British Independence of India and Fiji. And my oldest uncle had passed away 40 years before Fiji became independent. And he was in jail as a co-inmate of president, no, prime minister, Indira Gandhi. And he was, my dad was the Speaker of the House in Fiji in the parliament, in independent Fiji. So, Indira Gandhi when she became prime minister, invited him to come to New Delhi. And my father-in-law was impressed with all the pomp and attendant on the Speaker in Fiji.
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[PD]: So, they forgot all about that fee they had to pay, right? **laughs**
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: And then, that just reminded me of something else. I know that you mentioned, when you were growing up, when you were immigrating to Chicago, and immigrating to Buffalo, there was conflict, there was the war with Pakistan. Was that a factor in moving? I know that you also are moving for work, but was that another reason that you wanted to move to United States or get out of the area, or anything like that?
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[AP]: No. We had volunteered to be Indian in the army and they rejected us.
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[PD]: Not athletic enough (inaudible).
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[AP]: No. **laughs** But in those days, India did not permit doctors to go out. So, they would not issue passports. And application for Daksha was to be finagled, because that is how we got married in Mumbai. And I carried a Fiji passport. And Fiji was a colony of Britain in those days, so I carried a British passport. And so, the only way that she could get a passport and a visa to come out of India was to get married to me, and convert the citizenship from India to Britain. And that was the reason for getting us married in the first place. And so, she could come out with me as a married intern. And so, we had not been married as medical students. And so, we wrote—so, in Buffalo, New York, where we started the internship, we had applied as unmarried interns. So when we got married, I wrote to my program director, and there was a differential.
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In those days, they paid $400 a month to married interns because of the household responsibilities. Whereas the unmarried interns were given $300 a Month. So I wrote to father, Mr. O'Brien, sorry, Doctor O'Brien, that we we're going to be married interns. And they said, No, there's no problem, we’ll pay you $400 a month. And in Chicago, I still remember that we could not hire, rent an apartment, Medical Center apartment next to the County, because our salaries of $600 a month was too high. So, when we joined in Buffalo, we were joining out of date, because the school year, typically in medical schools here, starts in July. And we graduated in October, the year, ’65. So we joined in January. And by the time we joined, all the intern’s quarters had been occupied. So, we had to rent a place a mile away from the hospital, so the only thing that was good was that they had known that we were married. So, we didn't have to, they kept us on call every third day, so we wouldn't have to walk a mile away.
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And the only reason I skipped my OB resident rotation, and the only two deliveries I have ever attended are the two of my children, and I skipped the OB rotation in internship here in the US. And we are thrown out of the hospital where CC and I have been to OB rotation. And we had to go out to another hospital, which was devoted to obstetrics and gynecology. And we were thrown out on the very first day because, we separated the placenta and the nurse got mad at us for doing something out of turn. And we had read everything and we had to participate in 20 deliveries and we were thrown out on the very first day. So, we couldn't complete the, we had every intention of completing the 20 rotations, required rotations, and that didn't happen. Both in the medical school days and in the internship. I had no obstetrical experience.
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So, I have no knowledge, I depend on my daughter who is an obstetrician. And I skipped OB-GYN rotation altogether. And I feel that she's a PI for the oncology group. She is into fertility preservation for young mothers and she needed an obstetrics, she’s the obstetrician, but she needed an oncologist to help as guide. And I was handy and retired, so I volunteered to work with her research at the county hospital, where I go once a week to help her.
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[PD]: That must be nice to still be doing stuff with medicine.
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[AP]: Right.
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[PD]: And other than that, you retired, you said?
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[AP]: Yeah. Completely retired.
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[PD]: And then I just have a couple extra questions that I thought of. So, you said your wedding was very small, you couldn’t get to the 25 people. Who did wind up going to your wedding? Was it close friends or people from medical school, or anything special about the wedding do you like to share?
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[AP]: … We couldn't even afford to have 25 people on our side. My father-in-law was liberal enough, my sister, who was in Baroda, India, 300 miles north of Bombay, and she was pregnant, so she wanted to have deliveries, the traditions would have her go to her parents. And since they were in Fiji, 9000 miles away, so she had a choice to go to Nadiad, which was closer, or Ahmedabad, and she chose Mumbai, because she thought that we were doctors and, we were medical students, sorry. And we knew nothing of Obstetrics & Gynecology in those days, so she was keen on going to Mumbai for the first delivery. And my father-in-law was liberal enough in those days to rent a place one bedroom, no, two bedroom apartment for three months.
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In those days there was rationing of food in India, so all the supplies of food came from the in-laws who were close. So, my mother-in-law said to my wife, it would be nice if you came, started to the wedding hall from their house rather than our apartment. And that was unusual, we lived in the dorm and had no place to go. And we were not even married at that time, so my father-in-law rented not only that, but allowed his young, unmarried daughter to live with me and carry out the delivery of my sister. And that was unusual, because all the brothers liked the apartment living. And they all shared with us the unit, rented for us by my father-in-law. And in those days, there was a war between Pakistan and India, so, every time the Pakistani airplanes would fly over Bombay, there would be a siren, and we would have to descend five stories down to the ground in anticipation for the-- so we did that for two times when the sirens sounded.
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The third time, we refused to go down the stairs, and we stayed in the apartment until the sirens went off, so we did not follow the routine. And it was, my sister was, younger sister was nine months pregnant and ready to deliver, and fortunately everything worked out well **laughs* and no thanks to us. The young doctors in training, and we were totally inexperienced. But as they say, 90% of the obstetrics are done by non-doctors and only 10% are doctor skills needed. And that was, we fell in the 90% favorable, and we were criticized subsequently, for lack of experience for allowing my sister to come to Mumbai for delivery. And that she is (inaudible) here in Fiji from Philadelphia in the U. S. And I told you about the fact that my older brother (inaudible) had to sign an affidavit to prove that she was my sister who would sponsor.
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[PD]: Is there anything else that you’d like to add?
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[AP]: No.
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[PD]: How do you spell the name of the town you grew up in?
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[AP]: Oh, I went to, in India or in Fiji?
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[PD]: In India. It started with a g I think, I think you said it a couple of times, right? Or, what was the name of the town you grew up in?
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[AP]: I grew up in many places, mostly in Mumbai.
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[PD]: Okay. I thought you said another smaller town as well, ‘cause it's right where your sister was before she came—
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[AP]: To Philadelphia—
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[PD]: To Mumbai for your wedding, or what was—so I think you said that a couple times, I was wondering if you could spell it.
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[AP]: She was in Baroda.
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[PD]: Okay, how do you spell that?
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[AP]: B a r o d a, it's called Vadodara. V a d o d a r a. That’s the Indianized.
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[PD]: And then how do you spell your wife’s name? I talked to her on the phone, I forgot to ask it.
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[AP]: Daksha, d a k s h a.
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[PD]: And then, when you were talking about the tradition with wrapping the string around, how do you spell that tradition?
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[AP]: It’s Rakhi, r a k h i.
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[PD]: I just know that you've said all those words a couple times, so when I'm transcribing everything, I'll send you a copy of, you know, so you can look over and make sure I didn't spell anything right or missed anything. So, I just wanted to make sure. Alright, that should be good.