WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:12.200 [ANNA TAKADA]: The slating… This is an interview with Vijay Bhargava as part the Indo-Americ (Recording cuts out during slating and first question.) When and where you were born and maybe a little bit about your hometown. 00:00:12.500 --> 00:00:42.100 [VIJAY BHARGAVA]: Okay. I was born in Ujjain, Madhya Pradesh. It's in central part of India, it's historical town and one time it was capital of India. And there are still some ruins so that reminds you of that period. I grew up in a joint family. 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:17.400 By that I mean my father--they were nine brothers and three sisters. And all my father's brothers--those who were in town--stayed in the same house. So, we had a wonderful experience of knowing of our mothers and not knowing them. 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:29.200 Because when you came from school, one of the aunts would be on duty who will make sure you got your milk and two cookies and then they were tyrant who make sure you did your homework. 00:01:31.700 --> 00:01:34.000 [AT]: Did you have siblings? 00:01:34.500 --> 00:02:05.300 [VB]: Yes. I am the youngest of five. Two brothers and two sisters. My father was a lawyer, my mother, homemaker, and most of my family--and I'm talking about the extended family--mostly consisted of lawyers. My grandfather was a lawyer. So growing up in this town-- 00:02:05.300 --> 00:02:38.500 Interesting thing: my father and my family was very well-known and town in those days was small, although I don't know what is a small town in India anyway, because 60,000 people or 80,000 people is very common number. So, because the family was known, there was a lot of pressure on us. Everybody on the street recognized you, so you couldn’t do any mischief and school teachers always knew somebody in the family because my older siblings or my older cousins who went to the same school. 00:02:38.500 --> 00:03:02.000 And they could tell me things like, “They were smart. How come you waste your time?” And things like that. So, there was always that pressure. But I think growing up in joint family to me is what made me what I am today because sharing things, sharing love, um, 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:24.900 being part of a fabric where there are conflict, love, anxiety, depression, happiness, common birthdays--all those things were very important and really all of us who grew at that time are still well-connected. 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:29.100 [AT]: So does that mean that you grew up with cousins as well? 00:03:29.100 --> 00:03:38.400 [VB]: That's right. At one time there were close to 25 to 30 kids in the family. We had— 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.000 [AT]: So how many people total would you say— 00:03:41.000 --> 00:04:10.700 [VB]: Well, you see 35-40 people but what happens in those days, my grandfather's brothers lived in--one of them lived in a smaller town. So his children will come and stay at our house, and there was never any problem, the peace was never an issue it seems. Although if you visited our house it was--half was already built because there was a room here, constructed here--there was no design to it. 00:04:10.700 --> 00:04:16.900 You know? Because they were built as--as needed, I suppose. 00:04:16.900 --> 00:04:18.300 [AT]: Was it a large house? 00:04:18.400 --> 00:04:26.700 [VB]: Oh yeah! It was a pretty large house but, totally you know... You have to see it to--so say that there's no order to it, ok? 00:04:26.700 --> 00:04:28.800 [AT]: How many stories? Or just-- 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:58.200 [VB]: It was a three-stories house and we were--in my younger days, we were on the third story. There were sort of two rooms and boys’ and girls’room and—and the bath time came, you all went upstairs and one by one, or one the aunts came, then my--my mother who was the oldest of the--you know--my father was the eldest. 00:04:58.200 --> 00:05:31.300 So she would come last to tuck everybody in, you know? And until she came there a lot of pillow fights and all that. **laughs** You know. For example, you know…you had to have your breakfast time at 7:30, all kids, because then adults would come, so there was always that separation... But, you know, I tell you sharing and all those things, just wonderful and I consider myself very lucky. 00:05:31.300 --> 00:06:01.000 All my aunts and uncles liked me a lot. You know, among--**laughs** I always said to my cousins, or even my older siblings, that I was the chosen one, you know. And I have now two uncles survived and three aunts, okay? And they still think I am 10 year old. So...you know. 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:08.200 [AT]: And what languages--language or languages--did you grow up speaking in the house? 00:06:08.200 --> 00:06:38.700 [VB]: Well, we spoke Hindi. Only Hindi, although I remember my grandfather's older brother who also lived with us. He was the rent collector from farmers for the state government in those days, those maharajas. And he knew the dialects of the villages and all that, and he also knew all the four-letter words. Because after talking to farmers and all that, to collect rent was never easy. And sometimes you learn those words from him, you know? **laughing** 00:06:38.700 --> 00:07:07.800 And use them and got beaten up for it, you know? So, Hindi was main language. I went to a--what I call Hindi-speaking school. There was a convent school in my town where there—where English will start, and all that. Some of my cousins went there. I remember one day my father calling me in his office-- 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:23.800 These visits were only when you have something to do about your studies, or if you did something bad. Otherwise, there were no visits like that. So he called me in, and he said to me, “I want you to--I want to transfer you to convent school.” I said, “I don't want to go there.” 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:26.200 [AT]: I'm sorry what age was this? 00:07:26.200 --> 00:07:43.100 [VB]: I was...six or seven-years-old. So, I said, “I don't want to go to there. Although, I don't know how I could blurt out, you know, and I was so scared of him. He says, “Why?” And I said, “They have uniforms, I don't like uniforms,” so...**laughs** I didn't go but couple of my cousins had to go. **laughing** 00:07:44.100 --> 00:07:46.400 [AT]: So, maybe you really were the chosen one. **laughs** 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:57.600 [VB]: My mothers later one told me my father thought that I wouldn’t make it in the other school, anyway! So, I mean… **laughing** 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:08.100 [AT]: So you--you said your father, what--you were a little afraid of him? [VB]: Yes. [AT]: Can you describe him a bit more? What was his name? 00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:39.700 [VB]: Shanker Prasad Bhargava (interviewer asks for spelling). He was my height. Intense man, very well-read. Spoke very clearly. 00:08:39.700 --> 00:09:06.200 Well-respected in town, for being a lawyer, and also with all his social contribution to city. He was involved in all kinds of committees, you know? The--we used to have this--every 12 years, we have this big fair. There are four cities that have this fair. My hometown was one of them and Ranjana’s hometown is the other. Kumbha Mela, which is a big thing, you know 00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:07.100 [AT]: With the river! 00:09:07.500 --> 00:09:37.400 [VB]: Yeah. In her town it’s the biggest thing, but in our town also. And my father was the head of organizing committee there. My father was also equivalent of mayor of the city for some time. That's the way I can describe it. Maybe that was not the case. The only way--I say that because the mayor's office was located in building where there was a theater and **laughing** if you go there we could be put in theater without any problem, you know? 00:09:37.400 --> 00:10:02.200 And everybody sort of... I mean, respected him, and thing like that. So I...He was responsible for creating public library in my town, so he was very well-known. But very busy. I mean, and...in our culture, you see, 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:31.200 ...there’s so much of respected emphasized, and along with that is also fear. You know, it’s sort of a-- But in joint family you can--there's actually no problem. You don't have to see anybody. I mean I don’t have to see my mother because the food will be on the table... You know, you are hungry, you go to anybody and say, “I'm hungry,” but we were all taken care of. I mean you have your meals on time and things like that. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:11:02.100 So there was really absolutely no... reason to think of any adults, you know, the need of a father in this house was very necessary. But over there-- But we knew who he was, we knew he knew our principal and teachers and things like that. I mean, there were no, um-- Then later on he was elevated to state supreme court—or in India they call it High Court, which is the next step from the Supreme Court of India, you know. 00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:29.300 So that is... Like, here it would be appellate court or federal court, or something like that. So he was promoted—you know, he was appointed to that. Um...Good thing about him-- In joint family being a head of the family is very important to keep the family together, and he had the right temperament for it. 00:11:29.300 --> 00:12:01.300 In my book, you know? If I have to write something about him. He worried about everybody in the family. Actually, on his hundredth birth anniversary I wrote a letter to family, a letter to him, but sent a copy to family, and I was describing to him what had happened to family. And one of my cousin, Amar: “Boy…you know…He would have walked wanted to know what you wrote.” 00:12:01.300 --> 00:12:31.400 So about every member of the family I know where they were and, what had happened to them in their lives and things like that. And he was very concerned about that. Whenever we got our school results or college results, they were published in newspaper, they were--what we call Board Exams. He would be up at five o’clock to look at newspaper to find out if we were--you know, things like that. 00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:48.300 So he was very concerned. He was all for education and things like that. I remember him teaching me, you know, but late at night and I didn’t pay much attention, but he made an effort to teach me, you know. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.600 [AT]: Even in his busy schedule-- 00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:20.900 [VB]: Yeah, yeah he would-- Because he-- If my mother said, “Well his grades”--I mean, he will get my report card anyway and he'll try to teach me, but... Yeah, so up to seventh grade I was not a good student.  Not that I didn't have brains, I just didn't care.  And my teacher turned me around in, in 30 seconds. And so after that, worrying about studies was not a big concern for anybody, you know.   00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:25.300 [AT]: So what, what would you say changed in the--after seventh grade? 00:13:25.300 --> 00:13:53.100 [VB]: Well, this is a...We had a midterm exam in eighth grade, okay? In India, 40% is a passing grade.  You solve two questions out of five, you pass!  Which is a 'D', but you pass.  Exams are two and a half hours, but if you want to leave after one hour you can.  So I solve two problems, one hour. 00:13:53.100 --> 00:14:26.800 I submitted my term in my paper and I'm leaving and this teacher looked at me: "You finished?"  I said, "I finished." So I leave the room, two minutes later him yelling at me. He said--I go back, he said: "You solved only two problems." I said, "I passed!"  **Both laugh.** He says, so he asked me: "What are you going to do now? You have one and a half hour before you go home." I said, "Bum around." Which, I'm the only one on the field, but I don't care, you know.  Bum around. 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:29.900 [AT]: And what was the name of your school? Do you remember? 00:14:29.900 --> 00:14:59.200 [VB]: Yeah. Daulat Gunj Middle School (spells the name). So, he said, "I have a deal for you." I said, "What?" He says, "Finish this exam and I'll give you three periods off, which would be three hours. You only have one and a half hour, finish this exam." I said, "Okay." I go and finish the exam. 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:26.700 In those days in our school you sat in class according to your rank. So if you're bad student, you sat in the back. Which in my case, I was always in one of the back benches. If you were first, you sat in the front. So when he announced the results for this midterm, my seat moved from there to the front row.  00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:43.100 And then I realized what it was, you know, I mean, sending arrows from the back or talking to people and all that. You know what happens, success makes you think differently and that's what happened. So I credit that teacher. 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:44.700 [AT]: Wow, do you remember his name? 00:15:44.700 --> 00:16:14.200 [VB]: Yes. Mr. Mohanlal (spells the name). We used to joke about him. His belly was really big. And we used to say, "How does he knew whether his shoes are polished?" **laughs**  Now, there is an extension to the story. So I get my report card, this time I'm happy. I give to my father to look at. 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:25.200 So he see's 100 out of 100 in math and he says, "So...did they allow you to cheat?" **laughing** So, that's the story. 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:32.200 [AT]: Well, then after that, you probably didn't have an excuse to...be anything less than 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:42.300 [VB]: Less than. That's right, that's right.  And getting that sheet and getting 100 out of 100 is a different feeling, I mean, I tell you.  Even at seventh, eighth grade level, you know that. 00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:48.400 [AT]: Mhmm. Um, how about your mother?  What was her name and what was she like? 00:16:49.000 --> 00:17:10.100 [VB]: Mother, her name was Savitri (spells the name). My parents married at the age of--my mother was 13 years old. Actually...my son made a movie on my mother. You should see it. 00:17:11.100 --> 00:17:12.000 [AT]: What’s it called? 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:38.900 [VB]: “Ammaji.” We will figure out a way to--Because that's how to describer her. My mother.... Aggressive, committed, focused. If, if she had her druthers--and in those days, they married her early--she probably be a physician, doctor, lawyer, anything! I mean, she had that kind of go-- 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:39.300 [AT]: Drive 00:17:39.300 --> 00:18:09.300 [VB]: Oh yeah! And she was--she-- You know, 13, they marry, but they don't move with their husband's house until they are 15 or 16 years old. And she married. Moved into my parent's--my father's home in 1928. 1928 she got married, I'm sorry. In 1930, she moved. 00:18:09.300 --> 00:18:36.700 My brother, my oldest brother was born in 1931.  And at that time, my grandmother was alive and my grandmother had all these little children, too. I mean my uncles and some of them were same age as my brother.  My older brother and my oldest sister, for example, one of my uncles was born and my sister was born at the same time. But then in 1936, my grandmother died of cancer.   00:18:36.700 --> 00:19:06.500 And so the burden of the whole family came on me, because she was the old--well, the eldest daughter in-law. And she did a heck of a job with that. My grandfather had lot of respect for her. He relied on her to take care of the home and all that. So, later on...I mean, she was not educated and in her movie you'll see she always regretted not going to school. 00:19:06.500 --> 00:19:43.200 But, when my dad was appointed to high court, my mother had to move to a different town. Now, life in that circle is very different. You have to throw parties and all that. Adopting to that for her was no problem at all. I mean, she changed herself from a woman in a small town where you have some small town constraints, for example, you cover your head and those kind of things? In this new town she had no difficulty changing. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.000 [AT]: Where was the high court, or where did they move to? 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:58.100 [VB]: Oh, about 300 miles from a--In my state there were three places where there were high courts. Okay? So, she--they moved about 300 miles from there. A big town called Jabalpur.  00:19:58.100 --> 00:20:00.600 [AT]: And was it just the two of them? Were you all still-- 00:20:00.600 --> 00:20:34.500 [VB]: No, no. At that time I was out of--I was in college. But there’s a interesting story. The town they moved into--Jabalpur. That's where I was going to engineering college. There was a house opposite of engineering college where one of my father's friend lived. In my first three years I would visit him from time to time, and I will tell my roommate and other friends that one of these days, I’ll live in that house. In my last year of my college, I lived in that house. My father moved in that house. So!  00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:36.600 [AT]: Was it a very nice house? 00:20:36.600 --> 00:21:12.000 [VB]: Oh yeah, yeah! **chuckles** Actually my roommate, who was my roommate for all those years and my high school and my middle school friend, in last year, he goes and he doesn't see my name with him and...somebody else. And he runs me into campus and he says, "Why?  You don't like me anymore?" I said, "No, that's not case. Let me show you where I live." And so we walk out of the campus and I enter this house and he's laughing. He's thinking it's a joke. And he come inside and he see my mother and he literally had the heart attack, you know? **both laugh** 00:21:15.100 --> 00:21:45.500 So, my mom's case, she adapted very, you know, very well to that town. And then--Thing is about her, she was an avid newspaper reader. She'll read Hindi newspaper from page to page. So, she had more knowledge about things than many people who went to college and all that, because she read. And people always wondered where she found time. And in her afternoon hours, when my father was in the court, you know, she will take her nap, because it will--and then she will read newspaper.   00:21:45.500 --> 00:22:16.600 She was also a...fan of cricket, which is an Indian, you know, big game, like football here. She knew the players and she could curse if they were not, you know? You should hear her commentary when games were going on and all that. Um...Good leadership qualities, I mean, you know. This is where I say, you know, just education enhances us, but some of the things you bring with you, you know? 00:22:16.600 --> 00:22:43.000 In her case, for a fifth grade dropout person to manage the whole family, to move to another town, be able to work with other judges and things like that. You know, adapt in that town to do social work.  All those things, I mean. One last thing about her, in relation to me...When she moved to that town, in that house-- 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:44.000 [AT]: What was the name of the town? 00:22:44.000 --> 00:23:04.900 [VB]: Jabalpur. City. This house...the garden was not well-kept. So, we moved in there in July when the college started and they--he was appointed in July, that's when the court session starts.  00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:06.900 [AT]: Do you remember the year? 00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:33.600 [VB]: 1960. She said to me, "You have to do two things for me. You have to fix this yard. Because,”  she said, “one of these days I’ll have to throw party, and I want this to be fixed."  And the second thing, she was also very religious and in my hometown there were hundreds of temples and she knew them.  And there are days when you will go specific temple. 00:23:33.600 --> 00:24:05.500 So she said, "We have to find all the temples in this town. So, after college for next few days, you will travel with me in car and we have to find those temples." Okay? Now, I--In college we had a lot of people who lived in the city, so I asked them where are these temples, I made a list and we--. So, we found all those temples. In return, she said--fixing the yard and that--she said, “I’ll teach you cooking!” 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:38.500 So, what will happen, my father will go to court at 9:30 in the morning, I will come at lunch break for my--at lunchtime, she will wait for me and teach me one or two dishes, once a week. So in those 40 weeks, I learned lot of things to cook. And anytime I said something tastes great, I had to cook it, you see? So, I also cooked for them.  00:24:38.500 --> 00:24:42.100 [AT]: Her rule or yours? [VB]: Huh? [AT]: Was that her rule or yours? 00:24:42.100 --> 00:25:12.800 [VB]: Her rule, okay? And so I learned cooking. You know, and she told me that, “One doesn't have to be fancy. Four spices and salt can do the trick.” And I still cook with four spices, okay? Ranjana is, of course--you know they have--My son and Ranjana, they knew about 100 spices. I only know four and I can make anything, you know. 00:25:14.100 --> 00:25:18.900 [AT]: So was that something that you were interested in, you were eager to learn how to cook? 00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:41.200 [VB]: Well, I--you know, I was always curious about...gardening, cooking, you know. And cooking only in the sense that I was a, one of those guys who didn't eat everything, you know? I was saved by my aunts who catered to my needs. If that was my mother, who would probably beat me up to eat cabbage or whatever. 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:56.500 They were, sort of, in that big house, you know...when you are favorite boy, you get anything, you know? **laughing** It's like, remind me of the prisons, you know? And the laundry room guy gets you things? Exactly the same thing, you know? So! Heh! 00:25:56.500 --> 00:26:02.200 [AT]: Right. Do you know how you were the favorite? Was it that you were the youngest, or--? 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:36.700 [VB]: Well, you know my aunt, you know, who’s still living--she's 86, 87 year-old--I asked her the last time I was in India. She said...her words: "All others were trouble makers, busy with themselves, you know, a lot of things. In your case, you were a nerd”--you know, equivalent word in our--“Nerd! And listened to us, you were interested in--” If she was cooking something, I'll ask questions, things like that. She said, “There was a different thing about you, which--”  00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:37.400 [AT]: curiosity... 00:26:37.100 --> 00:26:47.000 [VB]: Yeah, or whatever that is, you know? And so...You get lucky, **laughing** I suppose. 00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:56.700 [AT]: What's the Indian or the word for nerd? Or what was the word that she used, when she was telling you? 00:26:56.700 --> 00:27:37.700 [VB]: Well, I translate, “nerd” only. But in India they will say, “tumhen seedhe de.” “Seedhe” means you were, you're simple-hearted, or whatever that is, okay? If you literally take it. It’s really that, other people are interested in doing other things creating mischief or whatever those things were. I didn't participate in none of those things. Well, for example, they knew things, like...maybe my cousins, my brother may have tried smoking at one time. They knew about it. They knew that I never did, you know. Those kinds of things.   00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:53.900 [AT]: So you mentioned that your family was religious. Could we talk about practicing growing up as a kid? You said you went to temple 00:27:53.900 --> 00:28:20.100 [VB]: We had a temple in the home and my--Two people managed it: my grandfather's older brother, who lived with us--the guy who collected rent from farmers. He'll get up at four o'clock. My mother had to get up at the same time because he wanted his tea. So my mother, doesn't matter what time she slept, she had to be there 4:30 in the morning for his--  00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:55.600 He took care of the, you know, in Indian temples you go and take each god and and dust them off, and things like that, set them up. Then you do a ritual puja and all that. And he would do in the morning, my mother took care in the afternoon, around seven o'clock in the evening. We were not required to do anything except that they were occasions where, like Krishna's birthday, which will be coming now. Anytime now. 00:28:55.600 --> 00:29:25.300 Everybody fasts that day and you went to temple and all that. Shiva's birthday and things like that. So you--all the religious days, whatever family observe, you observe. But in terms of any special requirements, the kids, we didn't have any special requirements. In my case, my mom--that’s another thing about with my mom, which is to me interesting in the sense that how broadminded she was.   00:29:25.300 --> 00:29:49.000 I mean, she was born on the day Shiva was born, according to-- So we had the biggest Shiva temple in our part of the world, you know, and very well known. And you go to that temple on that day. Now, you have to imagine whole town go to temple on that day. But we were privileged. So we get the entrance to the V.I.P. door. 00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:52.400 [AT]: Because it was your mom’s birthday or because-- 00:29:51.400 --> 00:30:13.600 [VB]: Well, no, no because of father's status and things like that, you know. So, we got V.I.P. treatment. My classmates, I always saw standing in line scrunched up, and I hated it! I really hated it. To go through back door and I would tell every time, my mom, "I don't want to go, I don't want to go." And my best friend who was a--  00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:39.500 He described...later in his life, to his children, “His shoe polish bill was my food bill,” he will tell them. His--my bill to polish shoes was his food bill. He was very poor, but we were best friends and we remain best friend. And he did wonderfully well in life, you know. 00:30:40.900 --> 00:30:46.200 [AT]: So, in school, were you with a group of students of all kinds of backgrounds? 00:30:45.100 --> 00:31:03.100 [VB]: Oh yeah! I went to public school, you see. I didn't go to convent school. Okay, I went public school and my best friend happened to be this guy who's father was a security guard for a cotton mill.  You know, but we were friends.   00:31:03.100 --> 00:31:06.000 [AT]: How did--did you ever go to his house, or--? 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:31.600 [VB]: Yes. I ate at his house. His house was this big (gestures with hands, indicating about the space of the sofa and coffee table around the two of them). This is the room. Their mother had a little stove in the corner. At night, the (inaudible) came out of the house, and they laid on that. He was...one child. Now, my father knew that he was my best friend, although, he would never come inside my house.  00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:36.800 [AT]: Your friend? [VB]: Even though my friend he’ll never come inside my house. [AT]: Why not? 00:31:39.000 --> 00:32:00.100 [VB]: This is where, you know, the society...norms come into play, you understand? I mean, this is, this is terrible, but that's what it is. He felt he was kind of crossing the boundary, his parents probably instructed him not to do that. So he'll come to my house, we'll sat outside, you know, like...He'll never come inside my house. 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.700 [AT]: Did that come into play when you went to his house? Or was it a different-- 00:32:04.300 --> 00:32:32.300 [VB]: Well, his, his mother became very conscious, you know, of that, what she was feeding me and all that. You know, after all, they had no resources. And that's where, you know, you were talking about what my aunt thought of me. My aunt knew that I go to his house, and I will eat anything at his house, you know. His mother was extraordinarily kind. And, I mean, I went to his house because he said, "Come to my house!" you know, that kind of thing. I mean you-- 00:32:32.300 --> 00:32:33.100 [AT]: And you're kids  00:32:33.100 --> 00:33:01.500 [VB]: Yeah, and it's on my way to school over there. He lived close by. He was, in our high school, he was number one ranked. I was three in my high school. When time for him to come to engineering college, he had no money. That's where my father...helped him.  00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:04.600 [AT]: Wow. So he got to go to school? 00:33:04.600 --> 00:33:30.900 [VB]: He went to engineering college, same engineering college I went except he went a year earlier, because I was not 17. I was 16 and the requirements, so I had to wait a year, so he became one year older--senior to me. He went on to become head of electricity board for the whole state. Which is a big thing, you know. 00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.000 [AT]: What was his name? 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:46.900 [VB]: Jagat Palsingh (spells the name). He passed away three, four years ago. 00:33:48.800 --> 00:33:51.900 [AT]: Had you been in touch in your adult life? 00:33:51.400 --> 00:34:22.700 [VB]: We were in touch off and on, because when I went to India he was situated in a city where I had no reason to go to. But when he retired he came back to hometown, so I did visit his home then. We will exchange letters from time to time, infrequently. But he knew where I was and I knew where he was. And when I visited him last time at his house, he made sure that his children were there. 00:34:25.500 --> 00:34:59.600 And I asked his sons, did you know where your father came from? One of them did not know. So I told them. And then he asked me, "Then, how did you become his friends?" I said, "Who knows? Friendship has no boundaries!" You know? So, my father took care of him, I mean that--made sure that his tuition was covered and college expenses were covered.  00:34:59.600 --> 00:35:01.800 [AT]: That's very generous. 00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:21.600 [VB]: No big deal, honestly. From my point of view, when I went to my father, I never asked for extra pocket for myself, anyway. Nothing. But when I went to him, I was very resolute. I told him he has to do it. He has to do it, he has to do it. You know, that kind of thing. 00:35:23.100 --> 00:35:26.400 [AT]: And what was the name of the university? 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:54.200 [VB]: Jabalpur Engineering College (spells the name). Engineering College.  It is now one of the information technology places in India. And that was a state university, state college. You know, you hear about in India, IITs and bigger places. People like me, I was happy to go to my state college, you know, I have no problem.  00:35:54.200 --> 00:36:00.000 [AT]: And so you went directly after high school--or you waited-- [VB]: I waited a year, yeah. I waited a year. 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.900 [AT]: And so how long was that program? [VB]: Four years.  [AT]: One year? 00:36:04.900 --> 00:36:20.900 [VB]: Four years. Yeah, engineering program was four years, like a degree here. Exactly the same thing. And that was recognized by here because when I came here to masters program, there were no problems with my engineering degree. Yeah, so no problem. 00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:32.800 [AT]: And so what year did you graduate then [VB]: 1961. [AT]: '61. Okay, and then, where did you go from there? 00:36:32.800 --> 00:37:02.000 [VB]: I worked for a year in, in India.  Now here again, my father had influence, and he got me a job. When I got out of college, I wanted to go on a one month, my own India trip. I land in my hometown, my college, my father heard--And although father was living there, but they have their summer vacation so he was in my hometown, and I came to my hometown. 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:20.800 I said to my mom, "Can I go for a month trip?" She says, "Go ask your father." And my father said, "Today's Thursday. Monday you start your new job." He got me the job and I was never happy with that. 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:22.800 [AT]: What was the position? 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:54.400 Well, we--this was a chemical firm.  And it was part of a large conglomerate, actually. Birla is a big--(spells the name)--Birla group is a large group. They have cotton mills, they have all kind of heavy machinery. All kind of things, so this was one of their chemical plants near my hometown. That's where I got the job, because my father used to be lawyer for that company.   00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:20.500 And everybody started as a assistant engineer, that was the title you get. You get two months of training and then they give you--in my case, I was working at a department. There are several departments and you become engineer for that department. I was never happy there. 00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:27.800 [AT]: And did you get to choose your college degree? [VB]: Yeah.  [AT]: Did you want to do engineering? 00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:54.500 [VB]: Yeah, when I went there, I chose mechanical engineering. And that was not a problem, you know. When you get there, first two years are common for all engineering, and then you decide. And middle of second year, you ask for your preference and most of the time you got your preferred place. 00:38:55.200 --> 00:39:05.500 [AT]: And before we move on, one question that we are supposed to get down are the names and the ages of your siblings. 00:39:05.500 --> 00:39:09.000 [VB]: Okay, ages now? 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:13.700 [AT]: Um, yeah, sure.  Or the year that they were born, whatever is-- 00:39:13.700 --> 00:39:27.900 [VB]: Okay. No, I can tell you the age now. I have my oldest brother. He is 85. Then I have a sister-- [AT]: What was his name? [VB]: Ramesh (spells the name)  00:39:30.200 --> 00:40:03.500 [AT]: And your sister?
[VB]: Her name is Shashi (spells the name). And she is 83. Then I have sister, (spells the name) Prem. And she is 82. And then I have a brother, S-A-N-T-O-S-H. And he is...79.   00:40:06.100 --> 00:40:17.300 [AT]: And then you were the last one.  [VB]: That's right. And I'm 76.  [AT]: Oh, I don't know if I got your birthday.  [VB]: January 12, 1940.  00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:32.800 [AT]: Yeah, I think these are just good to have on the record. Um... Did you have a good relationship with your siblings? 00:40:32.800 --> 00:41:03.200 [VB]: Yes, yes. And I still do. I mean,...if there is a trend in my life, that is: I am very relationship-oriented. I like to maintain relationships, even my coworkers and people who came in my life, I have--from people in England, of course--I was in England for two, three years, so. They disappear, but if I had their addresses, they always got a card from me, things like that. 00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:19.100 Here, my coworkers, my fellow classmates, I'm more connected than anybody else, you know. My acting community, now my singing community, you know. I’m very relationship-driven. 00:41:19.100 --> 00:41:24.600 [AT]: And are your siblings--did some of them come to the U.S. as well? 00:41:24.600 --> 00:41:54.300 [VB]: No. None of them--they all settled down in India. They have visited here. My brother was--oldest brother--was a president of a company, so he will come here for business. And my sister, number one, her husband was also--he was the chief technology officer for a paper mill. 00:41:54.300 --> 00:42:24.100 He was in paper industry and because of that, he came to this country and other countries. My next sister, her husband, they were owners of a tractor parts factory, and so he was educated in England. So he did go to England and they had a collaboration with a company in England. And he also came to U.S. for business reasons. 00:42:24.100 --> 00:42:40.200 My doctor brother, who was trained in India, he did not come here for any professional reason, except he did go to many parts of the world because he's a very well-known neonatologist. 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:59.800 [AT]: A...? [VB]: Neonatologist. That is the guy who take care of the little babies, premature babies. And he is very well-regarded in that field. So he has traveled to many countries but in U.S. he never came for business reasons. His son lived here. And he has visited me, you know. 00:43:01.200 --> 00:43:04.400 [AT]: So you were the pioneer, or I guess the only one. 00:43:04.600 --> 00:43:29.800 [VB]: Yeah, I'm the only one and I think one of the reasons for my getting out was, of course, I was was not happy with the job that I got. And then I had a...Again, my life is a series of blessings and luck. That's the reason I really, I tell you, I feel I am luckiest guy on Earth. 00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:58.200 Here, I'm in India and I have to write a final year paper on a topic. Our library's meager. My professor agree I can write a paper on the topic. In handbook of engineering I find a name of a professor at University of Manchester in England. I write a note to him and six weeks later I got this many papers from him. (Gestures with hands) 00:43:58.200 --> 00:44:36.000 [VB]: And he wrote to me that, whatever paper you do, I will want to grade it first before you submit to college. And he wrote that to my professor. And my professor agreed, he says, “Fine.” I send my paper to him, he.--In England like in India, they grade--they very strictly--and I got 69 points out of 100. But he wrote to my professor that I did my work and he offered me to come to do Ph.D. with him in Manchester. So here, I go to work for this engineering firm, I'm not happy, so I go to England! 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.000 [AT]: So, just to, um, clarify-- [VB]: --Yeah. [AT]: Um... 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:52.700 [AT]: When did you start corresponding with this professor? [VB]: 1960. [AT]: Okay, so a year before you graduated. 00:44:52.700 --> 00:45:03.900 [VB]: That's right. I had to write that paper for the final year. And-- [AT]: And then so after your first year of the job you didn't like, did you get back in touch with him? 00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:31.000 [VB]: Well, he told me and I said to him, can I work for sometime? He said, “Sure.” You know, he was really--So, and then I wrote to him and he--In 1962, November, I went to England. And I was going to start with him in 1963, in July or August, whenever the semester start. 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:57.400 When I reached in November he had helped me find a--find work. So, I had no problem. I visited him in December of that year, 1962, in Manchester. He had no children, his wife--they were very warm. I stayed with them for Christmas time for two, three days. 00:45:57.400 --> 00:45:58.700 [AT]: What--what’s his name? 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:29.000 [VB]: Mr. Smith. **whispering** Professor.... (starts tearing up) He said--they were very, very nice. In March, I got a call from his wife, "Come visit us." And she came to pick me up at the bus stop and she said to me in the car, "He's not well." 00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:56.200 Said--you know, and this is conversation, so I asked her, "What is wrong?" And she said, "Well, he'll tell you." So we got home around three-thirty, four o'clock. It was nice, cloudy day in Manchester. He lived next to a pond or a river, you know I have no--And he said let's go for a walk and we went for a walk, 15, 20 minutes, sat on a bench and he said to me, he has leukemia. 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:27.800 I had no idea. I don't know what leukemia is and all that. So, walking back, you know, it’s conversation, I say, "So you'll be alright?" He didn't answer. Then he came to drop me at the bus stop and puts his arms around me. **begins to cry** Told him--told me that he had six months to live. 00:46:28.000 --> 00:47:40.400 He died in July, that year. Then my heart was not in England, this was a first death I knew what death was. My grandfather died, but they die, you know. This one, there was no-- 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:41.700 [AT]: Someone you’re close to. 00:47:41.500 --> 00:48:10.700 [VB]: Someone who sort of changed my life! I mean, you know, talk about that.... Then, yeah university said they will honor but, you know, I--you know I’m--I went there because of him; what did I know about that place, honestly? I mean, I wasn't sophisticated enough to...investigate anything, you follow me? About the department, about the university, where or what dorm will I have? 00:48:10.700 --> 00:48:48.100 You know, all the question that people have. I didn't ask any of those questions. I'm relying on this uncle of mine, or whatever you call it! You know, I--no, I--so I, I--university told me--I told them I wasn't ready September because he just died and they said they will wait up to December because otherwise they have to make commitment to somebody else. And I, I told them. And then 1964 I came here. Then I, I didn't want to even stay in England. My, my heart was--Although, I...liked the place where I was--I was working for a company where they respected me-- 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:48.900 [AT]: In England? 00:48:48.900 --> 00:49:01.000 [VB]: Yeah. You know, he had arranged the job but--I mean he was confident that in my own right I will be able to establish myself and I did. But...then I came here. 00:49:01.200 --> 00:49:05.600 [AT]: So, then how, how many years would that be? that you were in England? 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:14.700 [VB]: From 1962 through '64. '62 November through September '64. 00:49:18.600 --> 00:49:23.400 [AT]: And from England you came straight-- [VB]: --U.S.A., yeah. [AT]: To the U.S. To Chicago. 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:54.300 [VB]: Yes.... Here, also, you know, I, I...had heard of couple of people who were in the chemical plant who come to U.S. so I said, “Let me go to U.S. embassy,” and I went to London to U.S. Embassy in that November...or October, whenever. You know, I used to go to London a lot for plays and things like that. 00:49:54.300 --> 00:50:26.600 So, I went to embassy and I said I want to apply for master's in engineering and they-- ...I had interest in school, but when I was--went there was a one, Mr. Meyers, was sitting in the lobby and for whatever reason, that day there was nobody around, so he--I heard him talking to the receptionist or whatever it was that he had lost his passport. So, I asked him where he--was he from, and then he asked me, "Why are you here?" I said, “I want to go to U.S.” 00:50:26.600 --> 00:51:01.900 And he was from Chicago, he said, "We have a great technology institute! Illinois." So I got a form for that. I was admitted to IIT, Michigan, and Stanford. But here was my logic: Michigan started in August, and I could earn another month of money, and Stanford and IIT started at the same time, except Stanford was $150 away by plane. And I had no idea what Stanford was anyway.... So I’m at IIT-- 00:51:01.600 --> 00:51:04.500 [AT]: So here you are! **Both laugh** 00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:24.500 [AT]: Um...so...you mentioned that your siblings had stayed in India. So, does that mean that you were the first to go abroad to-- 00:51:24.500 --> 00:51:40.000 [VB]: **still choking up** Well, I had an uncle who was at University of Toronto. So, you know...he was a statistician, he was a professor there. That's the only one from the family. 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.000 [AT]: It wasn’t...totally uncommon then, for-- 00:51:44.000 --> 00:52:11.000 [VB]: Yeah, in my case, going to England and--England was known to our country, you know, if you want to call it that. I mean, people going to England was very common. Two of my, my grandfather's younger brothers went to Cambridge and they got their bar at that law from there. So, that was--so going to England was not. Coming to America from there was, but since my uncle was at Toronto and things like that, it was not a problem. 00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:18.200 [AT]: And for your classmates, too? Did classmates go abroad? Was that-- 00:52:18.200 --> 00:52:49.000 [VB]: From my engineering school,there were...perhaps several went but two of them--one came to IIT. He was actually my roommate in that chemical company, okay? He came to IIT and the other one who also worked with chemical company was also my classmate in engineering school. So, both of them were my classmates in engineering school. He came to University of Michigan. 00:52:49.000 --> 00:53:06.500 So, those were two I knew but there were others. But I was friendly with a few and I kept connected with them, but there were lot of others I wasn't friendly with. In college and I was always petrified, you know. Study and that's it, that kind of thing. 00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:18.500 [AT]: And what were--Do you remember what your feelings were like when you made that move to England? To Manchester? From India. 00:53:18.500 --> 00:53:44.700 [VB]: Oh! That was honestly, I had no fear because I was going to a support system that I knew well. I mean, here's a guy. He didn't have to do me any favors, you follow me? I mean, why would he send me papers, grade my paper, offer me to come do Ph.D. with him? 00:53:44.700 --> 00:54:15.400 I mean, what does he know about me? He didn't even want to see my picture. Other than what I wrote! And then, I'm going to England, my sister and her husband who own the tractor parts--They had been there, they were there. I mean so it's not--going to England was no big deal, honestly. And I wanted to get out of that chemical company and I recognized at that time working for the chemical company that... 00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:45.400 for me, Indian working conditions were not satisfactory. Now let me make--When I went to work for this chemical plant, it was not that I was qualified, I was selected because my father knew the place. And at three months, when we completed our three months, which was in September, the head of the group came to town, okay? 00:54:45.400 --> 00:55:15.400 And I remember vividly people lining up at that, that...what we call, equivalent of a guest house. In that place, lining up to touch his feet! And two of us didn't go there. And you know what happened? We did not get a salary increase. 00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:47.900 Two of us. And the other 20 people got salary increases. And then the guy who was the Vice President of Engineering one day took me and this guy out and we had a big plant boundary, you know, big wall. He took us out of the gate and he says, "I'm not your official boss here. We are on the street. Get out of here." 00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:51.600 [AT]: Because you didn't-- 00:55:52.200 --> 00:56:25.900 [VB]: He said, "Look, guys, I had no control over salary increase. You guys are hardest working people in this group. I know that, okay? You are always here. Your secions run right. You have created your own newspaper systems. When we come to talk to you, can show us things...but! So, year later they'll be promotions and things like that,” he says, "I will have no influence." He was a British guy. 00:56:25.900 --> 00:56:58.000 And he said to us that, “If you need any help”-- Both of us, I--the other guy, his name was Jan, he stayed at that place for another year and a half before he came to U.S. ...Both of us left. So, and I didn't go tell my father. And my father, he probably didn't find out because he knew the corporate head and would have been very angry if he found out that I didn't go. 00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:02.200 [AT]: Where in your education did you learn English? 00:57:02.200 --> 00:57:05.900 [VB]: First grade on, you know, yeah [AT]: Oh, so it was from an early age. 00:57:05.900 --> 00:57:29.700 [VB]: Yeah, I mean, since I went to public school, my English was probably not up to par until I got into ninth or tenth grade, okay? I mean, you studied English from the first grade. You learn alphabetical and all those things. Ranjana, for example, she went to a convent school. So she probably spoke English much better than I did. 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:43.400 [AT]: Um...okay. So let's talk about your transition to the U.S. So you were accepted to IIT. [VB]: That's right. 00:57:43.400 --> 00:57:45.800 [AT]: What was the degree program? 00:57:45.800 --> 00:58:13.000 [VB]: It was a master's degree in industrial engineering. And they had a sort of combined program in industrial engineering and mathematical model building, those kind of things. At that time, operations and such and management science became a--fields in their own right, later on. They were sort of apart of...industrial engineering because they're--all talk about optimization and anything like that. So. 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:42.300 I came with the idea of a degree in operations research, alright? Although frankly I had--in my mind, or, to this date, I didn't have aptitude for engineering at all. I went to engineering school only because in those days, people--my father, for example--wanted me to be lawyer and I didn't want to be lawyer because I saw all these lawyers working whatever number of hours and things like that. You know, you sort of... 00:58:42.300 --> 00:59:13.300 So I went to engineering school. And I didn't want to be a doctor. I mean, I had grades, but my brother became a doctor and actually I had a--I remember a conversation with my brother. He said: "Look, if I go to medical school, somebody--you'll have to--it’ll be you who go to medical school." Fortunately for me, he was the last student taken. There were 1500. His name was the last on the list. He later on went on to become a big guy. So, I didn't have to go to medical school and I had good enough grades to get into engineering college. So. 00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:22.300 [AT]: And it seems--just from the careers that you've been describing--there is a pretty high expectation or standard in your family 00:59:21.500 --> 00:59:40.000 [VB]: Oh yeah! Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There was--there's still a saying in our family, that if you're born in this family, you're 75% there. **Laughs** You know? 20% are your work, and last five percent, who knows! **laughing** That kind of thing. 00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:47.000 [AT]: Uh, so, was your family pretty supportive then, of your move to the U.S.? 00:59:46.500 --> 01:00:18.500 [VB]: Yes. Um, then, with my father, you know, and I remember telling him, you know, writing to him that my professor died and I have admissions here and he knew of my uncle in Toronto, and so forth. There were no problems, really. And he knew, you know, in his mind, I was doing the right thing, going for higher education. You know. And he...had my admission, I mean and my uncle from Toronto said, “He’s going to a fine school,” and things like that. You know, no problem. 01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:32.700 [AT]: And...so then, remind me--what year was that, that you would have started, the master's program at IIT? 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:48.600 [VB]: '64, September. [AT]: '64, okay. And, can you describe your...initial reaction to Chicago? Or your first impression of the city? ...It was the South side. 01:00:48.600 --> 01:01:00.200 [VB]: That's right. I mean, look I... **laughing** I land at the airport, somebody's supposed to pick me up. [AT]: At Midway or--? [VB]: O’Hare. There were no Midway then. [AT]: Right, right. 01:01:00.200 --> 01:01:33.200 [VB]: O'Hare. It was raining like cats and dogs, I mean. And I couldn't find anybody. I have $42 in my pocket, that was my money. And that had become 31 very quickly because I took a cab. So I get off at IIT, rain had stopped, and he dropped me on State Street at 33rd and State--middle of the block. And I had a suitcase and a bag, and carried I get out and I see a guy walking a dog. So, I asked him where the Fowler Hall was, that's where I was going to stay. 01:01:33.200 --> 01:01:33.900 [AT]: Where was it? 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:56.000 [VB]: Fowler Hall. I was going to stay there. And he said, "Oh, it's next to my apartment building." There were two apartment building next, he says, "Walk with me, I'll show you." And I'm walking with him, I asked him, "Do students get jobs here? You know, to support themselves?" He said: "Write down my name, and call me tomorrow morning." 01:01:57.500 --> 01:02:20.500 Alright, I write down his name. Next morning, I register and go to his office, and he is there, and he says, "20 dollars a week, grading job." I have $80 a month nobody else has. **Laughs** I had paid my room and board and tuition for the first semester. The second semester, I got a full. So! 01:02:20.500 --> 01:02:25.000 [AT]: You're right, you are lucky! **both laugh** 01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:53.000 [VB]: Hard to make it on $31. No, I didn't worry about South side or anything. My focus was to study because I really, I felt that I was out of college from 1961 to '64. You forget things, calculus and all those things, you forget. And my focus was to study, so I--Really even on campus, other than the people who were my classmate, I didn't build any other relationships, in that sense, you know. 01:02:53.000 --> 01:03:00.000 [AT]: Did you have any expectations of the U.S. or Chicago before coming here? 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:31.600 [VB]: No. No, naive that way. You follow me? A lot of people think, "I'll be this, I'll do that." I said, "I'll do master's degree, I'll find a job." That kind of thing. I'll go back to India, or you know, in those days, at that time, you don't think that you'll stay here. And...so. One day, again, I get my degree in...January of 1966, my master's. 01:03:31.600 --> 01:04:05.900 And, around Christmas time, my advisor and I are sitting in his office, and he always thought I would do Ph.D. and I said, "Can I go work?" And at that time I had job offers from IBM, Xerox. And I said to him...His preference was I go for IBM because the job was in Chicago. Xerox was in Rochester. 01:04:05.900 --> 01:04:33.900 I, for some reason, liked Rochester but I was sort of just debating, and as we are talking his phone rings. And, he's talking to somebody and then he leaned back in his chair and he says, "Do I have the right guy for you!,” and he hang ups. He says, "There's a hospital just on 35th Street called Michael Reese Hospital. The president is looking for an assistant and you will--you are the right person for it, go there now." 01:04:33.900 --> 01:05:05.000 I said, "In my street clothes?" He says, "Yes." So when he saw hesitation in my face, he said "Oh, I have to go home anyway, I'll drive you there." So, it's five o'clock, he drives me to Michael Reese Hospital, okay? I, I’m sort of scared of the place. I go to administrative office and there is a woman coming out of one office and she said, "Can I help you?" I says, "Mr. Silverman is expecting me." And she says, "No, he is not." She is his secretary. But, Mr. Silverman come out and he says, "Yes, I'm expecting him." 01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:32.600 So, I go to his office. Here's the scene: he opens the drawer takes out a scotch bottle and puts it on his desk. He says, "It's five o'clock!" **laughing** I told him I don't drink. He says: "Well, in 25 minutes, I have to go to a board meeting. But since Dan sent you, I'm sure you're qualified so you're hired." Now we haven't discussed job or anything! We haven't discussed salary or nothing. 01:05:32.600 --> 01:06:01.500 And he says to me, "I have three requirements of people who work for me." He said, "Number one: If you are in this hospital, within five minutes of this hospital, anytime of day or night, you walk through the place." Remember, he's a executive director or president of the hospital. I said, "Fine, that's easy." “Number two,” he says, "I expect you to come here Saturday morning. 01:06:01.500 --> 01:06:30.500 And I want you to come early, seven o'clock. And there is a table downstairs, Shirley”--his secretary--“will show you, and I want you to sit on that table. It's in a restaurant." I said, "Why?" He said, "That table is next to doctor's table. And once they know who you are they'll come and curse me and I want you to tell me everything they talk to you about. And after nine-thirty, you can go home." 01:06:30.500 --> 01:07:06.000 I said, “Fine.” Third thing he said was the most interesting. He says, "You know, we are a Jewish hospital, we have our own culture. And to be successful in this place you have to understand us little bit. You have to understand the culture." He said, "Actually, in fact I expect people who are non-Jewish people to think in at least 49% Jewish terms." You know, which is nice thing to say, to understand the culture of the place, which a corporation will--General, GE will tell you, “understand our culture.” I said, “Fine.” I mean-- 01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:37.300 Then he says, "You have any questions?" This is now five-fifteen, I said: "I have three requests, too.” He said, "What?" I said, "I don't want to be nine to five employee. Please, don’t--if I come late, I don't want people to stare at me. You'll get more hours from me." He said, "Why would you come late?" I said, "If I am in the middle of Symphony #9, Beethoven's symphony, I’m not going to quit." You know! So he laughed. He says, "Fine, nobody will bother you." “Number two,” I said, “for two months, I don't want any project, I just want to wander around." 01:07:37.300 --> 01:08:05.800 He said, "Why do you want to do that?" I said, "Number one, to meet your requirement of culture. Number three,” I said, "I don't know nothing about the hospitals." He said, “No problem.” “Number three,” I said, "In about a year's time, I want to go to India to get married." He said, "Oh, girlfriend there?" I said, "No, no, no, **chuckling** my parents will find somebody." And I said, “I would like to have three months off, which--whatever your conditions, without pay or no. I won’t--” He says, “Okay, no problem.” 01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:27.700 I got hired, I didn't know my salary. So this is another lucky thing. The world's greatest hospital in those days. So, when you talk about my impression of America, man, in my case, they were all positive things, you know. South side never bothered me. 01:08:27.700 --> 01:08:45.900 My working at Michael Reese Hospital, there were enough African American employees who’re aspirations, who’re desires, who’re aptitude, who’re passions were same as mine. I mean, everybody wants to, you know, work, raise family, all those things, you know. I never...so. 01:08:27.700 --> 01:08:50.000 [AT]: Were you one of the few Indians? 01:08:50.000 --> 01:09:28.700 [VB]: In administration, yes. There were doctors. Administrative side, I would say even around the country probably, handful, okay? Hospital--Who went to work for hospitals when you have engineering degrees and you could go to IBM and Xerox? I went to work for them simply because, again, I had security of the school that I can do Ph.D. You know, I was very security-driven that way. And I could--I said to Mr. Silverman that day, I said, "Well I need an apartment." "Oh, we’ll get, across the street, we'll get you an apartment." **laughs** I lived across the street, for ten years. 01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:33.600 [AT]: Where, what was the--Do you remember the address? Or the intersection? 01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:37.600 [VB]: Yeah. Michael Reese? [AT]: Of your apartment. 01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:50.800 [VB]: Right across, 29th and King Drive. And the hospital was 29th and King Drive. Hospital was east of us. The five buildings still exist over there. I lived in 2951 building. 01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:55.800 [AT]: And were you ever homesick? Throughout these years? 01:09:56.200 --> 01:10:02.500 [VB]: ...Yes, in some sense because I was very well-connected with my family. 01:10:03.400 --> 01:10:04.400 [AT]: You kept in touch? 01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:32.200 [VB]: Oh yeah, I wrote letters everyday, almost. I wrote a lot of letters, yeah. But, in...I was most homesick when my professor friend died. Those--that next three, four months were very, very hard.... Very hard. 01:10:32.200 --> 01:10:39.600 [AT]: And that’s, I mean, that makes sense, seeing as how that was your support away from home 01:10:38.600 --> 01:11:13.600 [VB]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know the first death experience in the way you think about death, you know? For grandfathers and others it's a natural phenomenon, but for him, you know, I mean.... And that's the first British home I went to and stayed. It’s the first foreign home that I stayed was his home. And that Christmas of 1962, so. 01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:38.000 [AT]: And so when I spoke with Ranjana, she had mentioned how...at the time that you were both here and first arrived--or you arrived and then she came later, there weren’t many Indians in the city at that time. 01:11:38.200 --> 01:11:59.800 [VB]: The married--you know, we had lot of Indian students at IIT. We were only four blocks from there. There were very few married couples, okay? And we were. And I remember my close friends would ask her to cook anything, you know. They were willing to wash dishes and come and then there were others who came. 01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:26.500 And I remember when--The Diwali party of 1967, we had a studio apartment this size, we had 60 people in that, sitting on the floor, and you know! They were all students from IIT. So some we knew, some we didn't know, but you know...So we were probably the first of the married couples, you know. 01:12:26.500 --> 01:12:28.200 [AT]: Was it nice having-- 01:12:28.200 --> 01:12:52.900 VB: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, as far as I was concerned, you know. That way I grew up in joint family, so there were no problem for me at all. Now, some other people may have difficulty with that, I had no problem. I mean, whenever somebody called to come and eat, yeah. And that still continues, you know. I mean we have never had any problem with that. And in that case, you know, the credit really should go to her because she was so accommodating, I mean. 01:12:52.900 --> 01:12:55.100 [AT]: To Ranjana? [VB]: Yeah. 01:12:56.000 --> 01:12:58.500 [AT]: Um, so accommodating in what way? 01:12:58.500 --> 01:13:19.500 [VB]: Well, I mean...to accept, have these people to come and eat and be open-hearted about it and things like that. And she would encourage people to come and things like that. I mean, between her and me, I was more introvert than she is, I mean. She's very open. 01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:38.500 [AT]: So, um...so you had made that time available with that job, so that you could go back to India. [VB]: Yeah, yeah. [AT]: And that was '67? 01:13:38.500 --> 01:13:50.000 [VB]: That’s--I joined Michael Reese in '66, February. I went to India in 1967, September. I mean, November, yeah. 01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:56.000 [AT]: Could you describe that process of corresponding with your family and coming back? 01:13:56.000 --> 01:14:09.700 [VB]: ...You know, you never directly wrote to anybody. Or my parents, “Yeah, yeah come,” and they will find someone and you'll get married. Other than that, there are no other conversations. 01:14:09.700 --> 01:14:15.700 [AT]: Did you make that--did you reach out to start that process or how did that work? 01:14:15.700 --> 01:14:29.700 [VB]: This a--There are lot of thing in Indian community work through osmosis. It's understanding, okay? You are old enough to get married and you have a job and time to settle down, kind of thing. And uh-- 01:14:29.700 --> 01:14:34.400 [AT]: --was that kind of the standard? [VB]: Yeah, yeah. [AT]: Have a job and security? 01:14:33.500 --> 01:14:51.500 [VB]: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. I would say so, because if you talk to other men here who were in similar situation, would say it's same thing. Once they had job in a year and half time they went home and got married, unless they found somebody here, you know. But most of us who are Indian at that time went to India. 01:14:13.000 --> 01:15:29.300 [AT]: Ok. I’m just looking over some of the things that Ranjana told me, um.... She mentioned that you wrote letters everyday to describe all of your family. 01:15:29.300 --> 01:15:58.400 [VB]: Yes. In our case, I went to visit Ranjana's family, you know, with my parents on November 5, 1967, okay? And this is the process where you visit them, both parties are trying to assess each other and you can decide no or yes. I mean, that's sort of-- 01:15:58.400 --> 01:16:17.900 In my case, my older brother, the doctor, went with us. And he was my conduit to my parents and he told me in the train that Ranjana's family was very conservative, according to his assessment. And that I won't be able to talk to her. 01:16:19.200 --> 01:16:20.700 [AT]: That you won't be able to... 01:16:20.600 --> 01:16:49.700 [VB]: Yeah, talk to her. And so I'll have to make my decision on the basis of the surrounding or her looks or whatever. You know, I said, "Fine, that's what it is." And he said to me at that time and my mom, too that, “We have three people in mind, so if you visit this person and you want to see the others, that can be arranged and we can tell these people that we'll respond in three weeks and that's--or whatever time period it is.” 01:16:49.700 --> 01:17:20.000 And I said, "Fine." And, so, we go to her home. In India, some other strange things happen. I had two cousins who lived in that town. They also joined. So, now there are my parents and four men: my brother, me, and these two others. Although, they look little younger, but they are four men. 01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:33.100 Of course, I was introduced to her parents and Ranjana came later and nobody introduced me to her, except I knew who she was, but she didn't knew who I was! 01:17:33.100 --> 01:17:34.700 [AT]: There were too many of you to...**laughing** 01:17:34.500 --> 01:17:54.300 [VB]: Yeah, that's right! There was no introduction. And my brother's the only one who answered some question and I couldn’t hear. And my brother, whatever his wisdom, started asking question in Hindi, you know, in our language. As if she didn't know English or whatever that is, so! I hear their conversation. 01:17:54.300 --> 01:18:22.500 To me, in that meeting, most impressive person was her mother. Her mother, like my mom, was also a fourth, fifth grade dropout. She had just visited U.S. And she's describing her U.S. trip to my mom. Describing her fear of this escalators and these big shopping centers and thing like that. Here, this person-- 01:18:22.000 --> 01:18:35.900 [AT]: Where did she go in the U.S.? [VB]: She came to U.S. to New York. Her son was here, yeah. [AT]: City or upstate? [VB]: Yeah, he's in upstate now; he used to be in New Jersey at that time. [AT]: Okay. 01:18:35.900 --> 01:19:04.900 [VB]: And she's describing him and...they just had a child and she--her experience with the hospital--all those things, she's describing. And she's so enthusiastic, I mean, here--and to me, that's most impressive part. Her father, yes, a lawyer and you know--I've seen many lawyers in my life, **laughing** you know? That kind of thing. And so, I told my brother, um-- 01:19:04.900 --> 01:19:31.400 So there was this meeting and then there was about ten minute break before we had to sit down for lunch. And I told my brother that I will let him know my decision before lunch is over...okay? Ranjana came to serve, and by time I had all information I needed, because I had no other information coming, you know, so! 01:19:31.400 --> 01:20:01.500 I knew about the family, because they were described to me. I knew about she's a master student and all those things. And I kicked my brother under table, that was the thing that I agree. **chuckles** My brother was shocked, he just goes in hand and he spilled water all over the table or whatever and then he gets up and he says, "Can I talk to you for a second? Excuse me." And he tooks me in the little corridor and he says, "Are you sure?" **chuckles** I said, "Look, I'm sure." 01:20:01.500 --> 01:20:22.800 So after lunch, he conveys to my parents who convey to her parents except they don't respond. We had two hours before we take the train back and her older brother, in his wisdom, say: "Do you want to see our downtown?" I--What are you going to say? You're formal, you say, "Okay!" So make a trip to their downtown, which was-- 01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:23.900 [AT]: --In Allahabad? 01:20:23.900 --> 01:20:43.700 [VB]: Allahabad. It’s just two block this way, two block that way, end of story, you know. I mean, so. Came home, time to have a cup of tea and go, so I never got a chance to talk to her. Her brother--why her side didn't pursue this was mystery to me at that time, because she had met other boys and she had talked to them. 01:20:43.700 --> 01:21:01.500 And they lived really in a town that was more forward than my hometown. And if my parents made the assumption that they are really conservative, and--which is probably okay, but, why? So I--And then two days later they called and they said no! 01:21:05.700 --> 01:21:06.600 [AT]: She didn't tell me that. 01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:32.700 [VB]: Yeah, they said no. And in India they use a excuse #37: “The horoscope didn't match.” **laughing** Which is sort of--My father's priest said, “Horoscopes are fine.” Her--okay. Well my mom said, "Oh, we will go visit another person." So we take a trip to visit another person. Which, was total mismatch. I mean I, that’s why I am concerned-- 01:21:32.700 --> 01:22:01.100 I don't know why mother agreed to go there, because there was no compatibility in terms of family and all that, too. You know, I mean it was just--But, we visited other person and we came home in town and I said to my parents, “You knoww, if you cannot arrange somebody, then I won't waste my vacation. I want to go back. And I'll come back." I mean, I said, “I have no problem because I--see missed time I only have taken 15 days, so I can come back. 01:22:01.100 --> 01:22:04.100 [AT]: And this was your first trip back to India-- 01:22:03.300 --> 01:22:36.700 [VB]: That's right, since 1962. Yeah, 1967. So I said to them, “I’ll come back.” But this is 16th November, it was Thursday evening and I--we got a call they suddenly agreed. So in those 11 days, Ranjana had lot of pressure, from lot of people, to agree to this. Including her sister--that's another thing, her sister could have met me in Dehli and would have been much better because she relied on her sister a lot. 01:22:36.700 --> 01:23:07.000 Why didn't meet me is another--So there were lot of those things. But they agreed! Then I--on 19th, we went to her place. That's first time I talked to her. And then when I came back I wrote her lot of letters between November 22nd and December 11th, when we got married. I wrote lot of letters, describe to her whole family and things like that. You know, I mean...so. 01:23:08.300 --> 01:23:19.200 [AT]: Um...she also told me about your sense of humor. And how at the wedding with-- 01:23:19.200 --> 01:23:51.700 [VB]: Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, **chuckles** if you go to Indian wedding here, and when they're making those seven rounds or whatever, the priest will--there are seven promises you make. Probably they are well-written in sanskrit language, but when priests translate it, they botch it up. They don't know how to translate and I think priest should really write down, you know. The promises are no different than promises here, okay? 01:23:51.700 --> 01:24:20.200 And so, there is a--Priest says, "From now onwards, you look at any woman, it'll be your sister or your mother." I said, “I agree to disagree,” you know? That's all. **laughing** I mean, the marriage ceremony over there, although it has a spiritual sense to it, there is no order. 01:24:20.200 --> 01:24:35.000 People are wandering around, people are drinking tea, people are conversing and here, you're getting married. And all that thing is going on. It's really a pandemonium in that sense... so. So yeah, I-- 01:24:37.000 --> 01:24:54.400 [AT]: Um...so, are there, um... How would you say--so you grew up practicing Hinduism-- 01:24:54.400 --> 01:24:55.400 [VB]: That's right. 01:24:55.400 --> 01:25:00.500 [AT]: --being religious. How do you--are you still religious or practice or--? 01:25:00.500 --> 01:25:30.500 [VB]: Well let me go back to my mom one more time. Remember I told you I hated to go on her birthday. So, this is my--when they had moved to my town where I was going engineering school. In March is the Shivaratri, that's the Shiva's birthday that's where my mom's birthday-- And my mom said, "Oh well, your exams are three weeks later, let's go one day to the temple in Ujjain, my hometown. And I said, "Okay,” “You’ll go for a day?" I said, “Fine.” 01:25:30.500 --> 01:26:06.200 And then again we have this backdoor. Now, one of my friends, who did not go to college, has two little kids. And he's standing in line scrunched like that, I called (inaudible) was always scrunched and he was still scrunched. And he looks at me funny, you know. And I feel miserable and--So I'm telling my mom, you know, and when we were coming back on the train, I say "I really don't like to go. It's demeaning to me, you know?” Next morning, before we get down, Jabalpur, you know, train stop, she said to me, "You don't have to do this anymore." 01:26:06.500 --> 01:26:16.500 I said, "What?" She says, "All these rituals and all that, you don't have to do them." I said, "Mom, are you angry? Are you angry?” She said, “No.” She said I-- 01:26:06.500 --> 01:26:18.300 [AT]:What--sorry, what age were you? 01:26:18.300 --> 01:26:46.600 [VB]: Oh, I was 20 years old. And she said, "You don't have to do this anymore." I said, "Ma, what? Are you angry?" She said, “No.” She said, "I've thought about it a lot, you said to me when younger days, that you didn't want to do this. And I took you this time because I believe that if you go to god, your exams, you know, your health and things like that.” Which is fine. But, she said, "You got the essence of it. You don't have to do it." 01:26:46.600 --> 01:27:10.700 I don't do anything religious. I was--well my sisters and they do all kinds of rituals and thing like that. I really don't. I wasn't religious to begin with. I mean, I felt the temple was, in my case, was being used to create preferences and things like that. My job, getting first job was a preference-related job, I hated those things, you know. So! 01:27:12.500 --> 01:27:23.000 [AT]: Um...so that could kind of explain, maybe...your sense of humor at your wedding? It’s something that-- 01:27:23.500 --> 01:27:41.700 [VB]: Well that, **laughing**, no I...the sense of humor part is...I am, in many ways, a wacko, you know? **laughing** I always think on the other side, you know? I mean, I just-- 01:27:41.700 --> 01:27:47.600 [AT]: Where do you think--is that, um, was that common in your family? 01:27:47.600 --> 01:28:14.500 [VB]: No. Actually, you know, again, you growing up joint family there are two, more points I should make. One is there’s--as much as there's a sense of...camaraderie and those kinds--there a lot of tensions, too. There are lot of competitions. There are jealousies. You get a good grade, somebody else didn't get a good grade. 01:28:14.500 --> 01:28:41.800 You know, and things would be said where they're not meant, but they are said! And in that situation, or--either one can develop the same attitude, or one can develop the other side. I loved my aunts and all that, but they said some nasty things to me or they said nasty things to my mother, or mother yelled at them. I mean there were sometimes fights between my mother and the aunts, and they will separate the kitchen for few days. 01:28:41.800 --> 01:29:10.100 And then, with this kitchen separation, there is a line, my aunt's kitchen side is here, and then my aunt will say from the other side, "Come, to my side, I'll make your favorite vegetable!” I mean, you know this is sort of--you tell me. This was sort of--And happened all the time. You know, some cases. And, so we didn't care, we go to the other side. And good thing was, in those days, if there were disagreements at my mom's level, they didn't come effect us. 01:29:10.100 --> 01:29:40.400 For us, she was my aunt, you know? And there's a fight between them. Later on, our joint family broke up, and the reason was, people begin to take it--You know, if two kids fought, the mothers will fight. You know, you follow me? So it became an animosity between whole families and they broke up. So, sense of humor, I mean I could sort of--from there and I was always amused at certain things, like-- 01:29:40.400 --> 01:30:10.900 We will have...you can imagine a scene: summertime, mangoes are very popular. In India there is a mango that you suck on, you know? You make it loose and you suck on it, okay? And, you got ten of those to eat, because they're little, you know? And I look at my family where everybody's after them, everybody’s sort of going on. I was standing out, and I didn't like them. 01:30:10.900 --> 01:30:44.600 And I could, I could see what's going on there, you follow me? I mean, this whole scene is to you is a, is a, really a comedy! And there are lot of those kind of things and people getting uh--and most of them are food related. If a great dessert came, everybody's sort of--I’m sort of **laughs**. The fights, this kind of things and--or somebody getting a new something from somewhere. It's sort of very amusing to me. 01:30:44.600 --> 01:31:18.700 And that's the reason why I, I always felt that growing up in that family--the good thing was that you could define your own happiness, the way you want to define it, you know? Which is, not my idea. (name of an author) said that in a book, but I totally agree. He says, you know, if you grow up in an environment where you are able to define your own happiness as you grow up, then that environment must be right. And I totally believe that, you see. 01:31:18.700 --> 01:31:22.800 [AT]: Do you feel you brought that here when you raised your own family? 01:31:22.800 --> 01:31:52.000 [VB]: Yeah. In our case it cannot be my part, it has to be joint. But in that sense I feel very, very fortunate to be married to Ranjana, you know. Because she had really a very giving attitude. And that worked well for us. 01:31:52.000 --> 01:32:22.000 Even moving to live here where most Indian families live in suburbs, I mean, we are moving to the South side and predominantly Black culture, we have no problem with that. But, it allowed our children to be--to understand what problems are, and they both understood them and tried to work with them and help in those environments, so very positive in that sense. 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:57.400 And, but to me that's part of where I came from, you know, this--Also working at Michael Reese was a plus in that sense. You know, you got introduced to--there are people who live in suburb and go downtown offices, never have any idea of what the other fence is like. And we had great doctors who were from all religions and all colors, and we had employees of all colors, you know. Michael Reese was a great place to work! And then, living here had been very positive to us, for us. 01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:20.500 [AT]: ...Did you experience any culture shock when you first came here, or...? 01:33:23.300 --> 01:33:29.500 [VB]: No. No. [AT]: It seems like you were pretty flexible. 01:33:28.300 --> 01:33:59.800 [VB]: Ah, yeah, and there are lot of discrimination, all those kind of stories, okay? Only two things happened in my life and I took them lightly. One happened in England. I used to work for a design office where we'll prepare drawings. And when I joined that place--again, my professor helped me get it, the job--and most people in the office won't relate to me because I'm the only different-looking guy. 01:33:59.900 --> 01:34:28.900 Except the guy who was head of the office, talked to me extensively although at that time I didn't understand his accent. But understood that I could do lot of things, and he recognized that I could do calculations, okay? So any job came, I did all the calculations in terms of estimating how much it would cost and all that. And, in his mind I learned lot of things that are necessary to do that very quickly. 01:34:29.000 --> 01:35:00.600 But then people in office didn't talk to me. And I--you know, my desk was in a corner, at lunchtime I sit there, had my cheese sandwich and orange drink. One day, this guy approached me and then he said, "John”--our boss--he says, "John tells me you're a wiz! You're a wiz!" I said to him, "John can lie too, you know." He said, "No, I have this homework problem, I'm going to polytechnic here. Can you help me?" I said--I look at the problem--I says, "Do you want me to solve it for you, do you want me to teach you?" 01:35:00.600 --> 01:35:30.100 I said, "I can solve it, you can submit it, you will get a grade, or teach you." He says, "For now, solve it." I said, “Okay.” Solve it and he submitted it. Two days later he came back and he has another problem, I said, "Look, if you want to work with me, you have to learn. You know, I can teach you but otherwise my solving it--.“ Well, so, started relating to him--he's a good guy--relating to him. Now, suddenly there are other people in the office. So, it reminded me of a scene from Shawshank Redemption, you know? 01:35:30.100 --> 01:36:00.200 Where the--he gets one guy’s taxes and then all people are coming for taxes; **laughing** exactly the same thing there. At one time there were 17, 18 people who’s--I helped them with their homework in that office because they are all going to, to--So, this guy who become, at first become my friend, and then at Friday evening I will go to bar with him. And one day we go to the bar which is new bar. And I go with him and the guy, the bartender say, "Throw him out, I don't want to serve him." And my friend, Ian, he says, "What did you say?" 01:36:00.200 --> 01:36:30.000 He says, "Throw him out." Ian was six foot, two-inch tall, he went across, lifted like him--the bartender--from this side (gestures grabbing someone by the collar) and threw him on the floor, okay? And in England, you have to understand. Clapping is great thing. Everybody in the bar: clap, clap, clap. **laughs** And then, everybody in bar walked out. At the same time. I said to John, “You know what? We can go to another bar." He says, “No, no, no, they have to serve." The manager who's sitting in the back room came running, you know? 01:36:30.100 --> 01:36:59.000 And, he said, "Twenty, thirty people walked out!" he said, it’s their evening. He's apologizing to Ian, and he says, "You don't apologize, apologize to this guy!" He has a problem talking to me, but then he apologizes. And Ian says, not only him, “that guy has to apologize to him”-- the bartender--who is obviously hurt because he dropped him, but not hurt. So, bartender come apologize to me and things like that. So, that was one experience. 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:08.900 Um...and...I mean, that was the major thing, I mean, I-- 01:37:09.300 --> 01:37:11.200 [AT]: Generally, you did okay, yeah? 01:37:11.200 --> 01:37:38.000 [VB]: No, I mean, working at Michael Reese. Michael Reese was a conglomerate of Indian doctors, foreign doctors. It was another place where they saw a new face, okay? I mean, the only other thing I had was, I went for an interview to Louisville, Kentucky to Alcoa company, you know, when I was looking for-- 01:37:38.000 --> 01:38:08.300 And the human resources department was fine, but the engineer who saw me, he didn't talk to me, and I could hear whispering to the other guy, "I don't want to hire this guy." You know, that kind of thing. They paid my airfare, I came back, I mean, you know. But, I could hear them, yeah. I mean, I never experienced--I think Ranjana and some other people have more stories to tell you about that. At Michael Reese, maybe because of my position as assistant to the president, which makes a difference in some sense. 01:38:08.300 --> 01:38:22.400 But I also was, you know, I understood, you know, you--...Batting average is 300 in baseball, that should be alright in life, too, you know. **laughing** I mean, so! 01:38:22.400 --> 01:38:29.200 [AT]: Do you remember helping Ranjana when she moved? Sort of, to adjust to American culture? 01:38:29.200 --> 01:38:55.800 [VB]: Mostly, you know, she had difficulties, you know. And she came--she knew how to cook fancy dishes; she didn't know how to cook regular dishes. So, that was easy. And not only that, I mean she--her father was opposed to her dancing in India, although she learned dancing, and when she came here, I said, “By all means!” You know? And she wanted to work, there was no problem. 01:38:55.800 --> 01:39:24.900 Initially she was in Indian clothes. At some point, she changed and I said, “There's no problem with that. You know, you have to decide those steps yourself.” The only thing is, you can be in background and support a person, you know, in that sense? But, you know, it’s a--I think there are maybe other people who had more difficulty than Ranjana did. After all, her brothers were here and things like that. And she, herself is very brave in that sense, you know. 01:39:25.000 --> 01:39:32.500 [AT: You said there are certain steps that you have to take yourself, like making the decision to not wear-- 01:39:32.100 --> 01:39:47.500 [VB]: That's right. Yeah, like if you want to change from your Indian dresses to whatever, you have to make that decision. I was a vegetarian, but if she wanted to eat meat for a certain reason, there would be no, no problem from my side. 01:39:47.500 --> 01:39:58.700 [AT]: Were there any decisions that you made? Um, to...go from--shift culturally, in that sense? 01:39:58.700 --> 01:40:27.300 [VB]: ...Really, well, in my case, I remain a vegetarian, okay? Alright, so that's sort of, you know, the--most of the people from India, 80, 90% convert because in those days--'60s--there were very few vegetarian places and all that. 01:40:27.300 --> 01:40:59.800 In my case, I had Ranjana who could cook. And even when I was staying in dormitory, eating salad and mashed potato and rice and corn was not a problem for me because after all, I lived in England, you know? And although I cooked in the evening for myself, because this place where I stayed in England most of the time, they would give me kitchen after seven o'clock to cook my meal. And I came home six-thirty, quarter to seven, so. So I had no problem in, in--with the meals here at dormitory and then I was cooking at home, so. 01:40:59.800 --> 01:41:31.600 The meals I didn’t cook--and fortunately for me, in Jewish faith, that is very well-respected! You know, and so, most of my administrative contacts were Jewish people. I went to their home, they respected my religious faith, there were absolutely no problems in that regard. And even at Michael Reese, you know, there were--When my boss found out I'm vegetarian, there were provisions made in the cafeteria. 01:41:31.600 --> 01:42:00.400 Like, instead of one vegetable, there are two vegetables. Things like that. I mean, so, I didn't have to--Now, there were certain things I did to prepare myself for U.S. Because I had experience living in England. In England, when I reached there, I decided--and where I got this wisdom, don't ask me--I figured out that in order to settle in a culture, there are certain things you must know. You should be very well-versed in sports. It takes you long way with men's side of the-- 01:42:00.400 --> 01:42:29.400 And then you should understand the other aspects of theatre, music, and all those things. Politics, you usually figure out, because after all, news is--Over there, you heard news two times a night anyways: six o'clock and nine o'clock, if you were-- So, I got to know symphony, I got to know pop music. I got to know--I even visited, went to opera. Or whenever I could afford, I would go to theatre and I went to theatre--you know, so. 01:42:29.400 --> 01:42:54.900 I had no other expenses, other than the fact that I was educating myself. So, when I landed here, for example, even coming to U.S. when I figured out I was coming to Chicago, I figured out baseball teams and all of that, before I even landed here. So, at that time, White Sox were in the pennant race, I knew the names of the top players and people were surprised the first day I'm here, and I know the names of the players. I had knew how football works, things like that. 01:42:54.900 --> 01:42:58.200 [AT]: Was that a conscious effort? [VB]: Yes, yeah, yeah. [AT]: --to educate yourself on those things? 01:42:58.200 --> 01:43:26.700 [VB]: And what I'm saying is--where that wisdom came from, I can't explain to you, except that I was. Nobody told me that you had to do that, but I figured out that, in order to relate to a different culture, you have to know what their popular things are. You know, then you can integrate things you can understand later on, you know. So that, I did. And, so--Other than that, that cultural education, um, no I-- 01:43:26.700 --> 01:43:56.400 And as far as churches and all that, what are differences between different religion and all that, people would explain to you, you know? I mean, you know, going to synagogue or whatever you're doing and what is their ritual, people explain. I mean, there were never any problems in that regard. And, fortunately for me, people accepted me as I was. I mean, you know, and my stupid sense of humor or whatever those things--At Michael Reese with people, I had absolutely no problem. 01:43:56.400 --> 01:44:33.000 Which, again, I call being lucky, you know? Now, Ranjana had to, uh--what adjustments she had to make at work, she probably talked to you about. She felt more in the area of discrimination than I did. But then, she's more feisty, you see. She's more competitive. And as far as I'm concerned, my thing was if somebody didn't want to relate to me, fine. There are other people, you know? And I fortunately didn't run into anything like that. 01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:40.200 [AT]: ...I think we should be wrapping up, um [VB]: Hm, okay. 01:44:40.200 --> 01:44:47.800 [AT]: ...We can probably squeeze in a few more questions. [VB]: Yeah. 01:44:47.800 --> 01:45:22.000 [AT]: ...I guess before we close, I would like to know, um, do you, or how do you, um, maintain your Indian heritage on a daily basis? [VB]: Hm! Alright. 01:45:22.000 --> 01:45:25.200 [AT]: Do you still feel connected to your Indian heritage? 01:45:25.200 --> 01:45:55.400 [VB]: Yes. Very much. Um, there is no conscious effort on my part, okay? I do not go to temples, okay? Because I have great difficulty, generally, about using religion to create differences that I feel are unnecessary. Because ultimately to me, religion is only provide you with contract between you and God, which is personal, and has nothing to do with what goes on in temple, and all that. 01:45:55.400 --> 01:46:23.800 And our Hindu religion doesn't say you have to go to temple to worship, you know? God is everywhere, kind of thing. So I--Okay, in terms of...my values are based on where I came from, okay? One could argue that they are universal values and that is true. Treat your neighbors as you tr--you know, those kind of things? Um... 01:46:23.800 --> 01:46:55.000 Since I grew up in a large family, accommodating people was essential to survive. And accommodating people is a good strategy, you know. And so... because I learned that from there, you know? The other thing to me is very important is provide people with spaces. You know, as much as you say you grew up in a joint family, you had your space if you wanted to create it. And therefore-- 01:46:55.000 --> 01:47:28.200 You know, I have friends who are staunch Trump supporter Republicans that find a common ground and work with them, I mean I, you know, that kind of thing. So, I have no--Where does this come from? I say it's from my upbringing, you know. I relate to my cousins, my uncles, everybody lot more than people in India. And I know everybody's birthday, they get cards from me all the time. And so, I'm connected to them, I'm connected to relatives on both sides. 01:47:28.300 --> 01:47:56.300 I'm willing to help them in any way I can. Lot of people, say my uncle--who turned 90 two weeks ago--he said, he's closest to me! And there are nephews living there right in that town. Only because I remember stories. I remember the first time I--first time I thought I remember him. And I can write to him, you know? 01:47:56.300 --> 01:48:28.000 And his... his things that he did for family, in precise minute detail, I know. You know? And I knew about other uncles. So, in that sense I'm connected. I connect to my side. I, you know, I, with Indian classical music, I could have gone to learn Western classical music. But, my objective was not to learn music, I was trying to, to survive, because I have a, have a... 01:48:28.200 --> 01:48:58.200 health problem! If I don't use my throat muscles, they will die and “sayonara,” you know. So I--But I went to Indian classical music because it connects to me that side. Although I had a wonderful, wonderful teacher through my acting side who would have taught me Western music and--but she agreed that this is fine if I'm doing that, because I'm doing all the things that she would have done, except the violin. Okay. 01:48:58.200 --> 01:49:26.700 But, in the end, this is my country, this is where I live. Okay? I do most of the things, in this neighborhood, and I have no problem with that. I am master gardener, but I want to go gardening thing on this side of town. I don't want to go North side, because this is where I live. And lot of people say, “Oh, aren’t there danger, dangerous?” I said, "If you lived there, you live with the pluses and minuses." 01:49:26.700 --> 01:49:56.500 So, for example, two years ago, we created a garden in the senior center here, which was surrounded by young people playing basketball, and we are creating this. And those kids could have helped us dig up the ground, so I said to one of the senior citizens, “Can we ask them?” He says, "Stay away from them!” We dig up the ground, we prepared it, and as I was leaving, one of those guys said to me, "Hey!" And I said, "My God, what is he going to do?" He came to me and he thanked me for doing that. 01:49:56.500 --> 01:50:27.900 So, I said, "Can you do me a favor?" He said, "What?" I said, "These people cannot drag that pipe from fire hydrant to water”--because we had permisison from city. I said, "Would you help them?,” I said, “with your friends? your”--He says he'll do that. Except that winter, that...that little plot we created was vandalized. Totally destroyed. But I will do something here again. I mentor people, who are...young Black people. 01:50:27.900 --> 01:50:46.500 Now, somebody come from the other side I will do that. But if I have limited time, this is where I live, this is my preference, you know. I'm very happy with my neighbors, you know. I will do anything for them and they will do everything for me. So, that's what it is. 01:50:48.700 --> 01:50:54.000 [AT]: As we're closing up here, is there anything else that you would like to add? 01:50:54.000 --> 01:51:54.800 [VB]: Hm!...Well, only thing I hope the heritage museum is inclusive, in total tapestry of India. And India is like Europe, okay? But, India also has a problem of separation, you know. By language, by, you know, all those things. By food, because the south food is different all through there. I just hope the museum bridges that gap and involve a lot of people, in doing whatever the museum do, whatever...we are creating. If it doesn't do that, then it doesn't do justice to Indian heritage, you know. Then it's part heritage and...you know. But that's the only thing in that area, if I can be of help. That's all. 01:51:55.800 --> 01:51:58.900 [AT]: Okay, well thank you so much, Vijay, um-- [VB]: You're welcome. 01:52:00.000 --> 01:52:09.100 [AT]: I’m...sure this will be a, a very valuable resource to the museum and generations to come, so. 01:52:10.100 --> 01:52:14.600 [VB]: Well, and, thank you for taking time to do this, you know? [AT]: Thank you.