WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 01:15:59.000 [ANNA TAKADA]: This is an interview with Daksha Patel as part of the Indo-American Heritage Museum's Masala Chat Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on January 20th at 7:10 p.m. at the home of Daksha Patel. Daksha Patel is being interviewed by Anna Takada of the Indo-American Heritage Museum. So, now that that's out of the way. If we could just start, if you could spell your first and last name. 00:00:00.001 --> 01:15:59.001 [DAKSHA PATEL]: D a k s h a, last name p a t e l. 00:00:00.002 --> 01:15:59.002 [AT]: Now we can start with the basic biographical questions could you tell me where and when you were born and then maybe describe a little bit of your hometown. 00:00:00.003 --> 01:15:59.003 [DP]: I was born in a hospital in small town called Baroda which is about 180 miles from Bombay. And it's a quiet town, it was a town that was under the influence of kings and prince, so it was a very well-developed town with nice parks, beautiful roads, nice schools, etcetera. So first four, five years of my life I was there and then I was moved to Bombay, where I started my education. 00:00:00.004 --> 01:15:59.004 [AT]: Would you mind spelling the name of that town? 00:00:00.005 --> 01:15:59.005 [DP]: B a r o d a. 00:00:00.006 --> 01:15:59.006 [AT]: When is your birthday? 00:00:00.007 --> 01:15:59.007 [DP]: 03/28/41, 1941. 00:00:00.008 --> 01:15:59.008 [AT]: And the year that you moved to Bombay? 00:00:00.009 --> 01:15:59.009 [DP]: Was around ’45, ’46. 00:00:00.010 --> 01:15:59.010 [AT]: What languages did you speak? Language or languages? 00:00:00.011 --> 01:15:59.011 [DP]: My mother-tongue is Gujrati, you need to spell? 00:00:00.012 --> 01:15:59.012 [AT]: No. 00:00:00.013 --> 01:15:59.013 [DP]: Okay. Gujrati and then in school, we were taught secondary languages. One was the Hindi, other was Sanskrit, and third was then finally English. 00:00:00.014 --> 01:15:59.014 [AT]: Which were you most comfortable? 00:00:00.015 --> 01:15:59.015 [DP]: I was most comfortable with Gujarati when I was there, and then gradually became most comfortable in English. 00:00:00.016 --> 01:15:59.016 [AT]: And so, Gujarati that was your first language or-- 00:00:00.017 --> 01:15:59.017 [DP]: It was, yes. Mother-tongue, yeah. 00:00:00.018 --> 01:15:59.018 [AT]: What did your parents do? 00:00:00.019 --> 01:15:59.019 [DP]: Father was a businessman, mother was a homemaker. And she actually wanted to be a doctor, but in those years, women just didn't go to medical school, so she was a housewife. 00:00:00.020 --> 01:15:59.020 [AT]: How many siblings did you have? 00:00:00.021 --> 01:15:59.021 [DP]: I have five brothers and three sisters. So. we are a large family and one brother has expired, but otherwise everybody is around, and doing well. 00:00:00.022 --> 01:15:59.022 [AT]: What kind of business did your father have? 00:00:00.023 --> 01:15:59.023 [DP]: It had something to do with the machinery and the making of ball bearings for the mills, that industry that produced cotton. But I don't know a lot of details about the business. 00:00:00.024 --> 01:15:59.024 [AT]: So, with such a big family, did you have a large home? 00:00:00.025 --> 01:15:59.025 [DP]: No, we lived in Bombay, and Bombay is one of the most crowded cities, so that, usually people live in smaller dwellings the way they would live in Tokyo so that you learn to use space better. So, it was not necessarily large home, but in houses in tropical countries, you don't need a lot. You are able to manage very well, because you don't have four bedrooms and you don't have five bathrooms and all that, because that's very much Western culture. So, in India, people live in joint families and no one has sort of separate corners or separate closets or separate whatever. Everyone just lives in harmony with each other. 00:00:00.026 --> 01:15:59.026 [AT]: Were you close with your siblings? 00:00:00.027 --> 01:15:59.027 [DP]: Very much, yeah. 00:00:00.028 --> 01:15:59.028 [AT]: Where were you in the birth order? 00:00:00.029 --> 01:15:59.029 [DP]: I was third child. 00:00:00.030 --> 01:15:59.030 [AT]: Okay, so you were on the older end. Did that mean you had more responsibilities? 00:00:00.031 --> 01:15:59.031 [DP]: Yeah, I took more responsibility and all these years, I am very much responsible for the younger ones and even older ones. So, they look up to me and part of it is that I became a physician so that added more respect. So, they consult me for almost everything. 00:00:00.032 --> 01:15:59.032 [AT]: One question that they ask we get down is just the name and ages of your siblings. 00:00:00.033 --> 01:15:59.033 [DP]: So, my eldest brother is Jayant, j a y a n t and he is 82. My sister who is in India, that is Suru’s friend, Kumud, k u m u d and she is 78. And then, my younger sister is Uma, she's in Denver she 74. 00:00:00.034 --> 01:15:59.034 [AT]: How do you spell her name? 00:00:00.035 --> 01:15:59.035 [DP]: U m a. And then, I had a brother who expired of coronary, so he no longer is with us. And then younger brother Ashok, A s h o k, and he is 70. And then I have younger brother called Pradip, P r a d i p, who is 68. And then youngest sister, Devi, D e v i, who is 66. And then, there is another brother Kieran, K i e r a n, and he's about 65. 00:00:00.036 --> 01:15:59.036 [AT]: Do you still keep in touch with-- 00:00:00.037 --> 01:15:59.037 [DP]: Everybody, on daily basis, and this is because of the telephone, the WhatsApp, and so that they send messages when they are awake and then we send messages back when we are awake. And so, I would say in 24 hours that are 40 Communications between India and here, and everybody, you know, the sister in Denver, sister in Harrisburg, everyone sort of throws in that two cents in it. And so conversation just goes on. Like, if there is somebody's birthday, there are 40 messages from everybody. We are very much in contact. 00:00:00.038 --> 01:15:59.038 [AT]: So is it just the two others who are also in the U. S.? 00:00:00.039 --> 01:15:59.039 [DP]: Yes. 00:00:00.040 --> 01:15:59.040 [AT]: Everyone else is-- 00:00:00.041 --> 01:15:59.041 [DP]: There. In Mumbai. 00:00:00.042 --> 01:15:59.042 [AT]: Maybe we could talk about your life growing up in India. Could you maybe talk about the schools you went to? 00:00:00.043 --> 01:15:59.043 [DP]: I--very early on, the grammar school was called Shanta AV, s h a n t a a v. A and v were the initials. So, there I spent the formative years and by age of 10, I went to Suniti, s u n i t i, Suniti High School for Girls. Because there, it's not co-ed, or it wasn’t co-ed then. Girls went to girls’ school, boys into boys’ school. So, that was there until 17. And after that, I went to Elphinstone College where I did two years of pre-med, followed by five and a half years of medical school. And then we were married, we were classmates, and then came here. And then, we did one year of internship, two years of residency, followed by another year of fellowship, and then started as an attending physician. And that went on. So, I'm still working, but now it’s part-time. 00:00:00.044 --> 01:15:59.044 [AT]: Did you practice any religion growing up? 00:00:00.045 --> 01:15:59.045 [DP]: Practice, yeah we are Hindus. So, it's Hindu religion. Yeah, it has effect on us on daily basis. I don't go to temple to pray or anything, but I'm surrounded by religious photographs, religious everything. And these are all paintings done by my sister. Yeah, all this. Everything that hangs is done by her. That’s from Mumbai. 00:00:00.046 --> 01:15:59.046 [AT]: Which sister is that? DO: She's the, Suru’s friend, yeah. She’s artist. So she does the painting. 00:00:00.047 --> 01:15:59.047 [AT]: (inaudible) an artist. 00:00:00.048 --> 01:15:59.048 [AT]: Could you describe what an average day might have been? Like in either primary school or high school in India, like your responsibilities or? 00:00:00.049 --> 01:15:59.049 [DP]: Average day begins with waking up around 7 o’clock or so and with a cup of tea that usually mother makes, and you get dressed. By 7:30, the school begins and it goes on ‘til 12:30, and this was from 5th grade to 8th grade. At 1 o’clock, 1:30, I would come home, eat dinner. And then, there are other school activities for which I might go back to school to do music, or extra science, or whatever. Or, just meet with friends and do nothing. So that was that. And then, after 8th grade, actually school would begin at 12:30. And then, it would go until 6 p.m. and after 6 p.m. there will be after school activities. So, by the time I would come home, it would be 7 p.m. or so, 7 or 7:30 p.m. We would have dinner and then go to bed. 00:00:00.050 --> 01:15:59.050 [AT]: What kind of activities were you involved in? 00:00:00.051 --> 01:15:59.051 [DP]: Music and art. 00:00:00.052 --> 01:15:59.052 [AT]: Did you play a certain instrument? 00:00:00.053 --> 01:15:59.053 [DP]: Yeah. It was called harmonium, which is Indian instrument. But I sang, so that I was never asked to play anything, because there were enough other people who would play the instruments. So, those who were singers, usually would sing. 00:00:00.054 --> 01:15:59.054 [AT]: And then, could you describe how you got into medicine and science? Was that typical for folks your age? 00:00:00.055 --> 01:15:59.055 [DP]: No, but I was a science student, in the sense I did very well in school, in science. My scores were always 100 percent in most of the subjects, except we’d say the literature where they don't give 100 percent, they would give less. Very strong in math, very strong in science, and so, I always wanted to be a doctor, and my father had bronchial asthma, so that actually motivated me to become a physician. 00:00:00.056 --> 01:15:59.056 [AT]: Sorry he had? 00:00:00.057 --> 01:15:59.057 [DP]: Bronchial asthma. So, you know, you see doctors coming in daily giving injection and all that. And that motivated, and then there were some girls in our acquaintances who were in medical school. If girls were capable, they were sent to medical school. But, I always wanted to be a doctor. All along. 00:00:00.058 --> 01:15:59.058 [AT]: Since you were young? 00:00:00.059 --> 01:15:59.059 [DP]: Yeah. As long as I, you know, my memory dates back. 00:00:00.060 --> 01:15:59.060 [AT]: Were your parents and your family very supportive of that? 00:00:00.061 --> 01:15:59.061 [DP]: They were supportive, only thing is that, when girls go to medical school, they fear what would happen to them or who would marry them. Because there, it’s still arranged marriages, the whole system. So, there was fear, but I was scoring so high in exams that they were sort of motivated themselves to send me to medical school. But no, for example, I was the only one of nine siblings who was in medical school. And my brothers were all in engineering, like Suru. 00:00:00.062 --> 01:15:59.062 [AT]: What would you say--which of your, or what were some values that your parents really-- 00:00:00.063 --> 01:15:59.063 [DP]: Instill? To do good, as far as work is concerned. Punctuality. I have never seen my father not leave house by 7 in the morning and he came home at 8 p.m. at night. I have never seen him, you know, not going to work, so that hard work is number one. Honesty, no cheating, money has to come right way in the house. And be helpful to others. 00:00:00.064 --> 01:15:59.064 [AT]: I see a lot of that in the career path you have. So, when did you come to the United States? 00:00:00.065 --> 01:15:59.065 [DP]: ’65, December of ’65. 00:00:00.066 --> 01:15:59.066 [AT]: Did you say you were married before then? 00:00:00.067 --> 01:15:59.067 [DP]: Just married, just before that, 15 days before that on 7th of November, ’65. And then we went for two weeks to Ashok’s parents in Fiji Island and then came to the U.S. By then, we had the contracts in our hands for the internship where we were going to work in the hospital. So, both of us. 00:00:00.068 --> 01:15:59.068 [AT]: Would you mind walking me through again the path of your medical degree? And where you were for-- 00:00:00.069 --> 01:15:59.069 [DP]: So, after finishing the high school, two years of pre-medical at Elphinstone college, followed by five and a half years of medical education with, that included mandatory internship, followed by-- 00:00:00.070 --> 01:15:59.070 [AT]: And where was that one? 00:00:00.071 --> 01:15:59.071 [DP]: That was in Mumbai. So we both had licenses in Bombay to practice medicine. And then we took the ECFMG examination. It qualified us to come to the U. S. We were given jobs without interview, we were offered jobs, we had the contracts. And so, both of us came for higher education in-- 00:00:00.072 --> 01:15:59.072 [AT]: So that would have been ’65? 00:00:00.073 --> 01:15:59.073 [DP]: Yeah, ’65. And that was in Mercy Hospital in Buffalo, New York. And then, after finishing, we stayed for one more year in Buffalo, New York for first-year residency. But, Buffalo city was very small town. You know, I grew up in Bombay, it was very hard. So, we wanted to move to a larger city, and we came for interview here at Cook County Hospital. They immediately accepted us and that finally resulted in finishing our residency and fellowship here. And then we were--that was in, we finished in ‘69 December. And then, in ‘69 December my daughter was born Ashlesha, and Urjeet was born in ‘71 February 9th. So, we raised children. 00:00:00.074 --> 01:15:59.074 I was an attending physician. And then, I became director of neonatology. So, you know, one thing into other and finally 50 years went by. And then, recently, last year, we had a 50 year of our reunion of our medical class of ’65. So we all, we met our all classmates in Boston. And that was 50 years of marriage and 50 years of practice of medicine in United States. So, we had lot of celebrations last year. 00:00:00.075 --> 01:15:59.075 [AT]: Congratulations. 00:00:00.076 --> 01:15:59.076 [DP]: And now, what I do is to consulting work for department of social security for children with disabilities. And I'm able to choose my time, hours, days, etc. So, it's good work. Ashlesha is an obstetrician, Urjeet is an ENT surgeon. Urjeet is married to (inaudible) who is a neonatologist. Ashlesha is married to Mike Layland who an ENT surgeon and Ashlesha has three children. Urjeet has two children. Grandchildren come here often and we are all, very much involved with them.primary education is starting from Montessori to first standard, we had several vernacular groups, classes, in between. So, for four years after Montessori, I was at a local Gujarati school, local Parsi school, primarily for girls. And, so they would that take boys until they were about 8 or 9 years of age and then we moved on to a boy’s school. And so, I was there at the Parsi school, our community school, close to where we lived, for four years till I was age of 8 or so. And then moved on to another same kind of school, missionary school, called the Don Bosco High School. St. John Don Bosco. And they had a school that was newly opened, when I first started there. And that's where I graduated from high school, we call that secondary school certificate, SSC, at that time. So, that is my earlier scholastic life. inaudible 00:00:00.077 --> 01:15:59.077 [AT]: Would you mind spelling their names? 00:00:00.078 --> 01:15:59.078 [DP]: A s h l e s h a. U r j e e t. 00:00:00.079 --> 01:15:59.079 [AT]: So, I want to, if we could backtrack and talk about your marriage. So--and I'm sorry, what's your husband's name? 00:00:00.080 --> 01:15:59.080 [DP]: Ashok. A s h o k. 00:00:00.081 --> 01:15:59.081 [AT]: So, you were classmates, so you knew each other. 00:00:00.082 --> 01:15:59.082 [DP]: We knew each other from age 18. By the time we were married, I was 25. 00:00:00.083 --> 01:15:59.083 [AT]: Okay. And had that been arranged? 00:00:00.084 --> 01:15:59.084 [DP]: No, no because we are from different groups and normally such marriages don't take place. But, Ashok was an overseas student, so he didn't have home in Bombay, his parents were in Fiji. So, we were friends and he would visit my house, have dinner at times. My mother's cooking, etcetera. Everybody loved, so we hung out a lot, and gradually when I mention to my parents that he may be a person that I would like to marry, they had known him for a long time, so they had given approval. But still, the community would not approve, so it required some doing, and my father had to pay some penalty that daughter had stepped out of the internal community, where members marry each other sons and daughters. 00:00:00.085 --> 01:15:59.085 [AT]: If you don't mind me asking, what does that exactly mean or look like, like paying a penalty? 00:00:00.086 --> 01:15:59.086 [DP]: Because what happens is that, it's a caste system in India. So, that Ashok and I belong to different caste and the customs and rituals in each caste is different. And what happens is that if there are educated girls and then, they step out, the caste members would worry that what would happen to boys who would marry them, because--and vice verses that if boys bring girls from outside, then what happens to girls who are in the community. So, my father actually was the president of the caste, so the rule was that wherever there is a break in the law, or not law, but a policy, then that person, or the father would pay little fine. And that money would be used to distribute to students who need books for their education or something. 00:00:00.087 --> 01:15:59.087 [AT]: Did you have any expectations or fears about what your parents would think of that request? 00:00:00.088 --> 01:15:59.088 [DP]: No. Because from age 10, I’m o they can that I mean they had known that I had the abilities and so that if I had picked somebody with similar abilities, that they would approve it. 00:00:00.089 --> 01:15:59.089 [AT]: Okay, so it was in ‘65 that you came to the U. S. and you you went first to Buffalo. Did you have any expectation of the U. S. before? Was that the first time you had ever been to the U. S.? 00:00:00.090 --> 01:15:59.090 [DP]: That was the first time. No expectation because we just had come to work. We wanted to get the experience, higher education, and then go back to India to practice. So that our original plan was to just stay here for one year, or maximum two. So, I had no expectation except that I needed good training. I didn't want to be too homesick, that Buffalo was a problem that way. And there weren’t many Indians, I mean, three, four months go by and you wouldn’t see a single person who spoke your language, or you know. Plus, I was a vegetarian and I have always been vegetarian, so that was another issue at the hospital. Because, they didn’t know what all this vegetarian diet, what it means. Lot of adjustment had to be done, but those are minor problems. 00:00:00.091 --> 01:15:59.091 Major thing was to learn about diseases, acquired some extra knowledge, be ready to go back and practice medicine. So, that was the plan. But by then, Ashok was the youngest hematologist ever made the chairman of Hematology Oncology Service Sector Cook County Hospital here in Chicago. And then, we tried to find similar positions for him in Bombay, because I would have just gone in private practice. I wouldn’t even mind just distributing vitamin pills to kids, because, there diseases are different. And malnutrition, immunization, so I would have been happy. But, for him to find better job there or even equivalent was impossible. And then, gradually, the children were born and we, without realizing, we became Americanized and suddenly, without our knowledge, Chicago had become our home and then we are here. It's been fifty years. 00:00:00.092 --> 01:15:59.092 [AT]: Could you describe some of your first reactions to Buffalo? 00:00:00.093 --> 01:15:59.093 [DP]: Buffalo had lot of snow, knee high, and I was wearing a sari, and those were the years of fashion. And Bombay has the Bollywood, so that women dress up very well. And so, I had a sleeveless little blouse and a sari and so, basically, you know, the midriff is bare and shoulders were bare. And temperature was windchill factor of at least - 10 or so, when we had landed. Plus, we came from India, which is tropical country and so was Fiji Islands, Ashok’s parents’ home. So there were no warm clothes. You couldn't even find a decent sweater. So, what the hospital did was to ask us to go and check into the Hilton Hotel. They said, Stay there for two days. They did some cash advance and asked us to buy some warm boots, warm coat, sweaters, clothes, etcetera. And then, we started working. 00:00:00.094 --> 01:15:59.094 So, yeah, the winters were problem. It took about, good, I would say 10 years to like winter and snow. And then we became excellent skiers later, because children wanted to ski and so we were skiing. And now, we wouldn't do without snow. But, it takes time, it takes about seven to eight years, when you leave your home and go to another country. It takes about seven years to adjust, and then probably home-sickness goes away. 00:00:00.095 --> 01:15:59.095 [AT]: Were you very homesick when you first arrived? 00:00:00.096 --> 01:15:59.096 [DP]: Oh, absolutely. Because I had very large family, very extended family. I mean, there were 40 people at the airport to leave me for U. S. Even now, when I go, I have that. And here, when I come back, you know, I have to call Uber or taxi, so, no I have huge family there. So that, I was very homesick yes. 00:00:00.097 --> 01:15:59.097 [AT]: Were you the first of your family to leave to live abroad? 00:00:00.098 --> 01:15:59.098 [DP]: No, my eldest brother was the first one who had gone to Africa where we had family business there. He had gone to Japan, so he had travelled and then I followed. 00:00:00.099 --> 01:15:59.099 [AT]: Your, but your older sister, she was-- 00:00:00.100 --> 01:15:59.100 [DP]: No, she was in India. And then, my two younger sisters, then parents felt comfortable once we were here. So that, when there were eligible grooms who had come from U. S. to get married, both my sisters then got married to them. And they independently settle in the U. S. 00:00:00.101 --> 01:15:59.101 [AT]: Were their marriages arranged? 00:00:00.102 --> 01:15:59.102 [DP]: Absolutely. All, everybody. Except mine. Nobody falls in love, that just happen to two of us. 00:00:00.103 --> 01:15:59.103 [AT]: So, the marriage would have been in India? 00:00:00.104 --> 01:15:59.104 [DP]: Marriage was very--those were the days of Indo-Pakistani war that time, so there was National Emergency. Plus, it hadn’t rained for couple of years, so there was famine. So, the government had strict regulations on how many people could get together for wedding or for engagement parties, etcetera. So they were allowing not more than gathering of 25 people. So, in presence of 25 people, Ashok and I just got married. Was very simple marriage. And then, Ashoke was a British citizen, so I change my citizenship, because Indian government was not allowing doctors to go out. They felt it was a brain drain, that country would suffer. So, I had changed my citizenship and as a British citizens, we both had left for the U. S. 00:00:00.105 --> 01:15:59.105 [AT]: When you came to the U. S., what did you miss most about India? 00:00:00.106 --> 01:15:59.106 [DP]: Indian food. Because there, nothing was available. Only thing I could eat is either pizza, or bread and butter. There's nothing else and no Indian spice. We had to go to Toronto for even to buy Indian groceries, because in Buffalo, there was just nothing. And so, Indian food was most. The family, parents, uncle, aunt. 00:00:00.107 --> 01:15:59.107 [AT]: How about when you moved to Chicago? 00:00:00.108 --> 01:15:59.108 [DP]: I didn't miss anything about Buffalo. 00:00:00.109 --> 01:15:59.109 [AT]: Well, was there, was it any better in terms of-- 00:00:00.110 --> 01:15:59.110 [DP]: Yes, because, not for food, but Lakeshore Drive which is-- because Bombay is surrounded by water on three sides. 00:00:00.111 --> 01:15:59.111 [AT]: They have something similar-- 00:00:00.112 --> 01:15:59.112 [DP]: Similar. Marine Drive. It's called Marine Drive. And so, when I saw this, I said, Okay, I can stay here. Foodwise, no. We used to buy some Indian grocery from 555 plaza, Roosevelt Plaza, which was run by an Italian man. And he would have a few things that we used to buy. Other than that, stuff came from Bombay. 00:00:00.113 --> 01:15:59.113 [AT]: Did you cook? 00:00:00.114 --> 01:15:59.114 [DP]: See as, because my being in medical school, pre-med and all, by the time I would come home, majority of food and dinner would have been cooked. And so, I was only used as someone who do the skirt work. Like, you can, if there is rice, you'll make sure that there are no small pieces of stone in it. So that I would be a helper, but never, no, no. So that I wouldn't be able to fix anything, any dinner. So, I didn't cook. But then, I had to think what did they do and gradually had to learn to cook. 00:00:00.115 --> 01:15:59.115 [AT]: Yeah, I imagine that when you're in med school that would be-- 00:00:00.116 --> 01:15:59.116 [DP]: No, because you don't come home, by the time you come home the whole show is finished. People have come, they had had dinner, they have left little something for you, and that you eat, and go to bed. 00:00:00.117 --> 01:15:59.117 [AT]: At what point were you decided or set in neonatology? 00:00:00.118 --> 01:15:59.118 [DP]: It was just by serendipity, because Ashok’s residency was for three years. As he was in third year, I had to do some extra, I had to spend a year. So, I decided that I'll do the neonatology. And I liked it, and then they were offering the first exam, the board exam in neonatology here. So, I was one of the 14 who certified in state of Illinois in neonatology. It was the first time the board exam had come up with new specialty and then I just practiced that for 50 years. Was very good. 00:00:00.119 --> 01:15:59.119 [AT]: Where was the first place that you two lived in Chicago? 00:00:00.120 --> 01:15:59.120 [DP]: Actually, when we came to Chicago, there is here Fullerton Hotel. So, Ashok and I lived in a hotel. But later on we moved to Cook County Hospital, it had the quarters for the residents. So, we had one room on 11th floor, 1168 room. And Ashok and I had books and we’ll have teacups. The food at that time was free. The cafeteria you can walk in anytime, you eat. The uniforms the hospital would wash it, so there was no expense, no nothing. All you have to do is make sure that you respond to calls and take care of patients. 00:00:00.121 --> 01:15:59.121 [AT]: Where was that located? 00:00:00.122 --> 01:15:59.122 [DP]: Stroger Hospital, Cook County Hospital. Which is located on Harrison Street, I think 1825 Harrison Street or something, it’s the address. 00:00:00.123 --> 01:15:59.123 [AT]: So, the first spot you were at was the hotel, and then it was the residence-- 00:00:00.124 --> 01:15:59.124 [DP]: Residence there. And then, we went and lived in Broadview when Ashlesha was born. It was one bedroom apartment. And then, when Urjeet was born, we were in, on Wolf Road in Hillside, which is a suburb of Chicago. That was two bedroom. But then, I got a job here at Columbus Hospital. This is the hospital, this building, this is where I had job, so at that point, we moved next door to the hospital. And when that building became condominium, we said, Okay, we’ll buy a townhouse. So, we had a town house about a mile from here, where we lived in that townhouse for 36 years. And it's only last 2 years that we have moved here in our retirement. It's easier because that building had vertical living of four Story, and we feared that if one of us falls, it will be a disaster. Plus, to carry the laundry and all on third floor was very hard from the basement. So knee pains and all that. So, we said, Okay, this is time now to say goodbye to the house and move to the apartment. We just love it. 00:00:00.125 --> 01:15:59.125 [AT]: So how were, how are these homes that you lived in, were they very different from your home in India growing up? I mean I guess it's both urban, so it’s. 00:00:00.126 --> 01:15:59.126 [DP]: When we grew up in India, there was no concept of separate bedrooms for children. Children slept wherever there is a corner. So that, no matter where we were, we were just very happy that both of us had bed to sleep in. But other than that, I think we were so much into our work, and medicine, and excel, and exams, we took state exams, we took pediatric, I took pediatric boards, neonatal boards. Then, I got recertified again. So, that had been continuous series of examination. He’s triple boarded, I’m double boarded physician. And so, that, we-- all these things didn’t affect us. Our main purpose of life was to practice medicine. That's what we loved as work that we enjoyed. So, we never were looking for any other fun. We came home and still there is study and we did study. 00:00:00.127 --> 01:15:59.127 [AT]: Was there any kind of cultural shock that you experience in moving to the U. S.? 00:00:00.128 --> 01:15:59.128 [DP]: Even when I was pretty much Westernized, still cultural shock is of English language that is spoken differently. When you speak English as a foreigner, there is an accent, so it's an issue if patients don't understand, if nurse doesn't understand, etcetera. So that there were certain words, I mean even today I don't hear a difference between V and W. When I say Daksha, D, the other person hears it as B. So, that doesn't change, so that is one issue that has even remained, because the accent doesn't go away. That was one. Second was, part of the isolation also was that we both came from Gujarat state which is a dry state, so that, you know--plus, Indians don’t, at least in my time, were not drinking alcohol. So that going to cocktail party would become an issue. Because I have to say no to the food, no to alcohol, and I would be wearing sari, I had nothing in common. 00:00:00.129 --> 01:15:59.129 If they invited me to church, I wouldn't go because it's, you know, I'm Hindu. So that is social isolation that is thrust upon you. And at that time, there were no Indian temples, there were no Indian restaurants. This is all, this has gradually developed over 50 years. And, we were the first to arrive. So, yeah, there were lot of difficulties. But, we thought we were going to go back, going to go back. So that, you know, you say, Oh it’s only more year, it’s only one more year. So that’s how we were thinking. Still, 1978 we were thinking about going back to India. 00:00:00.130 --> 01:15:59.130 [AT]: When your children were nine? 00:00:00.131 --> 01:15:59.131 [DP]: Yeah. 00:00:00.132 --> 01:15:59.132 [AT]: Did you know any other Indian-American folks when you were here? Or Indian friends. 00:00:00.133 --> 01:15:59.133 [DP]: Ashok's associates. I, where I worked, they were all Caucasians, so that, this hospital. But Ashok had friends, Indian friends. So, he's associates, so they're still our friends. Then, Suru, we often met. You know, each time they invited, Dottie is an excellent cook. So, we had dinner at her place. And then, I have a cousin who is in Chicago, so that was a family. So, there were about four, five family. Then my younger cousins had come to study, I had sponsored them. So, they went back, got married. So, there are two cousins there. So now, we have a good group. But, we were the first ones, so, it's different. 00:00:00.134 --> 01:15:59.134 [AT]: So that first cousin you mentioned came after you? 00:00:00.135 --> 01:15:59.135 [DP]: Everybody. I was the first one to come to U. S. with Ashok, yeah. 00:00:00.136 --> 01:15:59.136 [AT]: That seems to be a theme. You're the one to go to med school and the first one-- 00:00:00.137 --> 01:15:59.137 [DP]: To leave home, so there was expectation there that we would go back and so, some tremendous disappointment that we didn't make it back home. 00:00:00.138 --> 01:15:59.138 [AT]: For whom? For you or for your family? 00:00:00.139 --> 01:15:59.139 [DP]: For parents. Brothers, sisters didn't mind because they--then some of them moved. And so, there is now, between Ashoka and I, we have really extended family of hundred members. So, it's a good group, but we were the first one. 00:00:00.140 --> 01:15:59.140 [AT]: Did you feel any pressure because of that? 00:00:00.141 --> 01:15:59.141 [DP]: No. No, it’s just the disappointment is not a pressure, but, you know, that dampens the spirit. Because, the hope was that both the doctors will come back and practice in the community. Community makes you a doctor, they have worked very hard to make that happen, right? So, there were expectations. So, we were not able to fulfill that. We didn't go back, so. 00:00:00.142 --> 01:15:59.142 [AT]: Were there any-- what were some of the biggest challenges for you in your career going through med school and all that? 00:00:00.143 --> 01:15:59.143 [DP]: Nothing. No, study is not a problem. Practice of medicine **laughs** but if you say, Okay there are three people or half a dozen people coming for dinner, if you open my refrigerator right now it's empty. So, you know, I am not a good CEO of the house. Like if I run out of the salt, then I have run out of the salt. But, it's not like I would remember that, Oh next week, I won't have salt, let's go and buy salt. So, yeah. So that housewife who comes and lives with me would be totally devastated, and they would think the place is very chaotic, and probably it was. But, it's not important to us that I have matching cup and saucer, or that I have matching plates. We have no value for it, but for others, it is very stressful. So, for people who live with me, it will be very stressful for them. Because, they won't be able to handle this irregularity of the house lifestyle that we have. Because these things don't affect us, it doesn't affect him. It may, even if it may affect me little bit, but Ashok could care less. 00:00:00.144 --> 01:15:59.144 So, we would run out of milk--the other day we ran out of milk exactly on Christmas day, so we were Searching. And the police car really stopped us and says, Why are you going to the store don’t you see, store closed? And I said, Well, we just ran out of milk and we didn't realize it that it’s Christmas today and so. She was laughing and she then directed us to one of the gas station where we picked up milk. I think, to be a CEO of the house is very difficult task. Have to make sure everybody's clothes are in order, and everybody's food is--so, when we were growing up with children, we ate out a lot. So, my daughter can't even cook and if she's cooking something, she wouldn’t even realize that the stove is not on. She kept on asking, Mike that, How come this chocolate is not melting? And so, Mike says, But for that you have to turn on the stove. So, she also has same difficulty that I have. But then, she's very busy with night calls, the obstetric work, and she has a commute also, because she works at County and it’s 20 miles, so it's about three hours of commute every day, on top of her 10 hours a day of job. So, you know, the household work suffers. 00:00:00.145 --> 01:15:59.145 [AT]: Did your parents ever come to visit you or Ashok’s? 00:00:00.146 --> 01:15:59.146 [DP]: Yeah. Ashok’s parents, Ashok’s mom died very early, when we were here during the second year of residency. But Ashok’s dad often because he was a speaker of the house in Fiji, and he had participated and wrote the rules and regs once Fiji became independent, so he had played major role. And he was always a guest to the prime minister of India. And so he often went to India and each time, when he went there, he stopped by here. My parents came, father was able to come once only. And mother had come about three times. So, they visited us. They were very happy with what they saw. Plus, by then they had two other daughters, so it’s different. 00:00:00.147 --> 01:15:59.147 [AT]: Was your, was your mother similar to you in terms of, you know, like you mentioned, not having matching plates or dishware, not being the-- 00:00:00.148 --> 01:15:59.148 [DP]: No. Because she was when, in nineteen hundred and--she was born in 1910, right. So, when she started going to school at age of six, there were 40 boys in the class and one girl and she was one girl. She was an excellent singer, she was a brilliant student that normally would have gone for very high education, but that was 1920 where the women didn't become doctors, so. Yeah, I think that it's possible that we have no interest in household work as women. And that is frowned upon because people expect that, you know, you know how to serve and how to cook, etcetera. But, that's not my long suit. 00:00:00.149 --> 01:15:59.149 [AT]: So, maybe we can talk about your children, do you think--so, they're both doctors as well. So, I imagine you two had a bit of influence on-- 00:00:00.150 --> 01:15:59.150 [DP]: No. They felt that they don't know any better, they have only breathed medicine, they have not heard any other word, other subject, other interests. So that, it was like my son will say, Oh well, if I can find anything else, I'll become a doctor. Daughter didn't want to be a doctor, because she had told Northwestern Dean that my parents have been very busy, I was born in the hospital, and like I have not been discharged. Because from directly from school they would come to my unit, intensive care. They would sit in the side room, do their homework, the nurses would give them little milk and cookies, I would be working. And then, I finish my work and bring them home. So, they felt that they are in the hospital a lot. So, my daughter had told Northwestern Dean that she didn't want to be doctor. But, when she became president of the dorm, at Northwestern, she was calling blood drives. So that she would call the Red Cross and collect blood from students for donation. If student was sick, she would call an attending physician and arrange immediate appointment and all that. So, all her friends said that, You are acting like a doctor, so why don't you be one. So then, she listened to her friends and applied for medical school. 00:00:00.151 --> 01:15:59.151 [AT]: And remind me what schools they went to? 00:00:00.152 --> 01:15:59.152 [DP]: Latin school 00:00:00.153 --> 01:15:59.153 [AT]: So through high-school 00:00:00.154 --> 01:15:59.154 [DP]: Yes, and then Northwestern. Urjeet went to Brown University, undergrad, and then, he went to Yale where he did his medicine. Went to Mayo Clinic to do his fellowship. 00:00:00.155 --> 01:15:59.155 [AT]: Can you recall like around what time, you know, you had mentioned when you first arrived, you were in a sari and like, when did that shift happen where you changed your clothes? 00:00:00.156 --> 01:15:59.156 [DP]: No, that happen, as far as hospital work is concerned, there was a policy at where I did my internship, in Buffalo. That no sari, because in the OR, you had to wear scrubs. And sari would be, you know touching the floor which would mean it would collect the dirt. So, they had uniforms for residents and interns. So, it was right away they took the measurements immediately, skirt, blouse, so that was no problem. It's just that I didn't know like why to wear stockings and those years, to wear stockings required elaborate whole system, you know, with the clips and all that. And clips will fall off, the stockings will fall off, and so I had tremendous trouble keeping my stockings. Plus, to wear stockings for 36 hours straight because I would work from 8 in the morning, or 7 in the morning ‘til next day 5 p.m., that's when you get released after you finish your night goal. 00:00:00.157 --> 01:15:59.157 And still, at night, you have to be in stockings, so that 36 and then they will be so many (inaudible) you guy and suddenly you know you can hardly wear it for two days, three days, so that, I had felt like tremendous waste of money. And during those years, women were not allowed to wear the pants at work. So, that, I think change, even not at Stroger County Hospital, those pantsuits, I started wearing, I think, around 1978. And that’s most comfortable, because--now saris are worn only when we have Indian gathering.…But at work, no, I have never worn saris at work. Because, right from the beginning, that was the policy of the hospital. 00:00:00.158 --> 01:15:59.158 [AT]: At Latin, were there other Indian American families? 00:00:00.159 --> 01:15:59.159 [DP]: Little, Ashlesha and Urjeet. Now, if you go to Latin, you wonder whether you are in India or somewhere else. But, no, there were no Indian children. Because it was very expensive and so parents would move out to suburb. But my problem was that I was an ICU doctor. So, I can’t go to suburb, I have to be next door to the hospital. I would sometimes come three or four times to the hospital in middle of night. So, I was living next door and the only hospital, I mean, school that would take children was Latin. It was private school, the public school were excellent, but problem was that the teachers would go on strike, come September. And, in my house, everybody had to be out by 7:30 in the morning. So, if teachers go on strike suddenly, I can’t get a babysitter to look after them. So, that was an issue. … 00:00:00.160 --> 01:15:59.160 [AT]: Was that difficult with the kind of work that you do and raising two kids? I mean, because you're both doctors, you both have-- 00:00:00.161 --> 01:15:59.161 [DP]: Oh, yeah, early on, to get a babysitter was almost Impossible. So that, we would go through series. I mean, lot of women, if I put an advertisement for babysitter, they will advise me to stay home. Because in those years, women didn’t work like 36 hours, you know, and as mothers. So, getting good babysitter was always a problem and so, it helped me to be next door, so that if anything happened, I could always come back five, ten minutes, take care of a problem and go back, go take the kids with me. The 4 o’clock classes of medical students, I always held them at home. So that kids will have their little cookie and milk, residents will eat donuts. But then, residents also learn how a woman doctor would, all medical students, the women learn how they would manage home as well as work. So, I was very popular as a teacher and a doctor. 00:00:00.162 --> 01:15:59.162 [AT]: Again, you're kind of like guiding the way or being the first-- 00:00:00.163 --> 01:15:59.163 [DP]: Right. And they have to know--because now, it's 50/50 so, medical school--when I came here only 5% women were going to medicine. So, out of a class of, let’s say 100, 95 would be boys, men doctors, and five would be girls. Right now, 50/50 at Northwestern. Means all the girls have to learn what they're going to do, you know, what they will select, what they'll do. And I always tell women doctor that half of your salary will go for babysitting. If you can’t part with it, don't bother to have children. Because, who would look after that. But even for Ashlesha, she has two babysitters. Aloka, my son’s wife has babysitter, nanny, but still I mean I would get call anytime, that, Mom, can you pick up kids? Mom can you do this, that? For example, tomorrow night, Ashlesha is on call, Mike is on call. So, Ashlesha will come here, drop off her three children tomorrow evening, and then go to Stroger Hospital, she’ll be on night call. And then, in the morning, around 9 o’clock, she’ll come here, she might have little breakfast, or she will swim here a little, and then take children back. Yeah, so that hasn’t changed, only thing change is that they have grandparents. Us, we didn't have anybody. … 00:00:00.164 --> 01:15:59.164 [AT]: You've mentioned the numbers the 5% and 95% male, female is sticking with me. Was that challenging, at all? Being-- 00:00:00.165 --> 01:15:59.165 [DP]: It was challenging, in the sense, that in India, when we were in class, Ashok and I, we were 50/50. And here, no. So that women--first of all, you couldn’t tell anybody that you are a doctor because, they’ll say, No, the women are nurses. So, even if I take a cab today and if they say, Are you a nurse? I say, Yes. Because I am tired of explaining, I don't even explain anymore, because I said, You did not learn. So, I say, Yeah, I'm a nurse. But it meant that they wouldn’t give you job, they see you are in childbearing age, you’ll have a child, child becomes sick, who is going to take care of patients. Even to get jobs was difficult, because they were not used to. But even today, women doctors are paid about 14% less for same work. And that, here, has not changed. Now, in India that's not true, I mean, women are treated badly no matter where you go, but **laughs** once you do the work, you get paid equal. Here, some of our professors will say, Oh well, he's recently married, he has a young bride, so a male doctor who would get higher salary. The woman doctor wouldn’t. So, it was insane. But, we all have survived. 00:00:00.166 --> 01:15:59.166 [AT]: Did that bother you or frustrate you or? 00:00:00.167 --> 01:15:59.167 [DP]: No, because I think once you are a mother, nothing bothers you, because you know that your vulnerability, right? In the morning, at 7 o’clock, a babysitter does not come, then what do you do? I mean, you could be a CEO of the hospital, but you can’t go. You have to call your colleague and say, Look, I have little trouble. So that instead of fighting a system, you develop friends, and networking so that if there were other women doctors, then we would sort of be able to call each other and say, Emily, I have no babysitter. So, she’ll say, don't worry. I had Dr. Krishnan, who was my right hand. So, Krish, problem. And then I don't even have to say what the problem is, and they take over. And then, we would do this, that if there were Christmas or Thanksgiving, I’ll say, Look, I’m Indian, I don’t celebrate all this, so I’ll take calls. You go away for long weekend. But then, I expect that if I'm in trouble, then they will cover me. No, nothing bothered. You have to go around it to make system work for you. Because children were still priority, because it was not like accidental pregnancy, we wanted two children. We adjusted ourselves. And Ashok is very helpful. It's not like he needs, Oh it’s seven in the morning, he needs tea. He doesn't think that other person who lives in a house is his servant. He is self-sufficient and helps. It worked. 00:00:00.168 --> 01:15:59.168 [AT]: It really seems just from this conversation that you two have been partners for-- 00:00:00.169 --> 01:15:59.169 [DP]: Yeah and so, once we went on vacation, and we were in a boat, and the guy says, I don't know if she's your girlfriend or wife, but can you tell her to sit closer to you so that we can have--and my husband says, She's both, she's a girlfriend and wife. So, no, he’s adjusting very well and he always, because he's a first child, he has always, in his family, taken care of his younger sister and brother. So that for him, he doesn't have the typical male chauvinistic nature. But, because of that, he was very popular at Cook County Hospital and actually a president of the medical staff. And their staff is like 300 to 500 doctors. We were able to adjust to each other’s need. If I were on call, and I would sleep in the hospital, because ours were always in house calls, so when you’re on call, you sleep, so six nights out of a month, until age of 66, I was sleeping in the hospital. But then, Ashok in the evening would bring dinner, children will come, we would eat dinner in the cold room. And so, the kids were always with us. 00:00:00.170 --> 01:15:59.170 [AT]: You mentioned how you two had considered going back and that was the plan for quite some time. Can you talk a little bit more about that. 00:00:00.171 --> 01:15:59.171 [DP]: What transpired, not being able to--we went in ‘78 to India, met the Dean of medical school that had come here before that, and, you know, we had a party and he had met us. 00:00:00.172 --> 01:15:59.172 [AT]: Had you been back before that? You had visited? 00:00:00.173 --> 01:15:59.173 [DP]: Yeah. So that time, we expressed our interest. And they said, Right now, there are no jobs, number one. Number two, the hospital, the KEM Hospital from where we had graduated, I was hoping that he could get the spot there and then I could start private practice. But, he said, No. Then, even the prime minister of India, Ms. Indira Gandhi, that time urged scientists to stay away from India, because she felt that India didn't have jobs for doctors who were trained overseas, suitable jobs that could make them happy. Number three, for masses of India, she promoted the homeopathy medicine and said allopathy was very expensive and that we cannot, we just don't have it. Now, the current prime minister is different, because he wants everybody to come back and he wants to create positions for them. But now, for us, it's too late. 00:00:00.174 --> 01:15:59.174 So that was one thing that, not being able to. Plus, being from different community, the community's expectations of us were different, you know. That first, you run your house well, you be your good CEO of the house, and then you have five, ten minutes left from that work. Then, you go and practice medicine, which wouldn't have happened with us. I feared that people will interfere with our marriage, and then, you know, create problems because their expectations of a housewife are just too many that you couldn't. By that time, children were adjusted here and they were very well accepted in the school and they had created their own lives here. And so, we were not able to go back. But, that thought has been a recurring theme in our lives that we could not go back--because we didn’t come here, you know, we didn't ask for asylum, there was no political pressure, nobody threw us out of India. We didn’t have that kind of shortage of money, actually there was no reason for us to even come here in the first place. 00:00:00.175 --> 01:15:59.175 So yeah, the recurring theme among many Indians who come during the time that we came, is that, Why didn't we go back? So, even in our reunion last year, we were all discussing that what made us come here, and why did we not go back. And these were the reasons that everybody really was able to practice medicine the way it should be practiced. Without corruption, state-of-the-art, patient needs this, patient gets it, patient gets better, patient goes home. There is nobody bothering. Government either pays or the third-party insurance company pays. But, we were shielded from the patient's financial difficulties, etcetera. Because, when we practice, there was plenty full of money. It was not like this. Patients were covered, hospitals were able to write off patients who didn't have money, I mean, this hospital where I work, it was 570 bed hospital. It was huge hospital. Work was very satisfactory here and that kept everybody here. 00:00:00.176 --> 01:15:59.176 [AT]: But, it sounds like you weren't necessarily aware of that, or thinking of that when you first came to the U. S. 00:00:00.177 --> 01:15:59.177 [DP]: No, no, no, I mean, we always wanted to go back. And here, even today, we think that it would be nice to have our own hospital in Mumbai. 00:00:00.178 --> 01:15:59.178 [AT]: I think Dorothy had mentioned you and your daughter had done a project working in India together. 00:00:00.179 --> 01:15:59.179 [DP]: I didn’t. She did because University of Illinois had received the two million dollar grant from NIH, and that was to prevent postpartum hemorrhage in India, in small university town called Belgaum. So, she went every six months and then she wrote the protocol, these are home deliveries and after delivery, if women have hemorrhage, they’ll die. But here, what they had done is--and of course there's no intravenous, there’s no equipment there. So they had a tablet that you insert in the vagina and that will produce the spasm, uterus will close down, there would be no bleeding, so that project lasted about two years. And these are deliveries where you don't have electricity, you may have candlelight, and all that. 00:00:00.180 --> 01:15:59.180 But, what it showed is that old, because of this research, the overall care improved so much, that mortality of women who were pregnant went down, hemorrhage went down, and so that study was then published in Lancet. And since Ashlesha was going as a medical student and resident there, when the study was completed, there was a good, big, gathering. So, Ashlesha says, Mom, you have to come with me. So, I said, No, this is your achievement, you know, you achieved this. But, they said, No, the hospital in Belgaum, they want to honor you as a mother who has sent the daughter there. So, that's how we both went. But, no, I didn’t participate in that project. Because, this is where Ashlesha was working, in her--she has done master’s in Public Health at University of Illinois. So, it was their project. 00:00:00.181 --> 01:15:59.181 [AT]: And as Ashlesha and Urjeet were growing up, did you visit India again? 00:00:00.182 --> 01:15:59.182 [DP]: Oh yeah, because we were going every five years. Because they have cousins and I have such large family, so now, they’re all connected. Now I don’t even know that they’re talking to each other, they’re meeting each other. But then, they’ll decide that they’ll meet in London, they’ll meet somewhere else so. But no, I initiated that to make sure that they have that, they know that there is a place where they have relatives. 00:00:00.183 --> 01:15:59.183 [AT]: Do they speak Gujrati? 00:00:00.184 --> 01:15:59.184 [DP]: No. Because I didn’t teach them, and mainly because I know these Spanish children. They’re in very bad shape because the school speak or teach them in Spanish, English then Is taught as second language, and then when they grow up, second language is not good if you are living here--and I honestly believe that if you migrate to a country, then please speak their language. Don’t-- 00:00:00.185 --> 01:15:59.185 [end of recording] remainder of interview is available in transcript document