WEBVTT
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[REBECCA ROBERTS]: So, all right I'm going to start off with an interview slating.
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[SUDHA RAPP]: Okay.
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[RR]: This is an interview with Sudha Rapp, is that how you pronounce?
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[SR]: Yes.
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[RR]: Okay. Okay. Rapp?
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[SR]: Rapp.
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[RR]: Rapp, okay.
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[SR]: Like a wrap.
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[RR]: Like a trilled r or a solid r?
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[SR]: Solid r. Rapp.
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[RR]: Rapp.
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[SR]: This, I think it’s a German, American inaudible
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[RR]: Oh okay. Alright. Just wanted to make sure I got it right.
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[SR]: No, you got it right.
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[RR]: Okay. Alright. This is an interview with Sudha Rapp as part of the Indo-American Heritage Museum's Masala Chaat Oral History Project. This interview is being conducted on November 29th at 11 A. M. at Sudha’s home. And, Sudha is being interviewed by Rebecca Roberts of the Indo-American Heritage Museum. So, Sudha, let's start off with some, just background questions, some biographical questions. Can you state and spell your first and last name?
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[SR]: Okay, first name is S u d h a. Last name is Rapp, r a p p.
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[RR]: And when and where were you born?
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[SR]: I was born in Habbaniyah, Iraq. It’s above that, you know part of inaudible, March 8th, 1943.
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[RR]: And did you grow up there?
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[SR]: Yeah. To be moved. My father moved around a lot with the oil companies, and he was an accountant doing the audit, and so we moved, I was about 5 when we moved from Iraq to Iran. Masjed-e Soleyman and we were there, then we move to Kuwait. And we used to go for holidays to Beirut, in those days. And went to Egypt, you know, and, so yeah, till was 8 years old, and I was sent to India. I went to boarding school there, Saint Mary's.
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[RR]: So what languages did you speak when you're growing up in Baghdad and later on?
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[SR]: English and Hindi. Two languages.
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[RR]: And where did you go to school in India? St. Mary's, you said.
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[SR]: Yeah.
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[RR]: At a boarding school?
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[SR]: Yeah, it's a boating school. Saint Mary's and then I went to, I did my senior inaudible, that's what we do.
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[RR]: Your senior—
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[SR]: It wasn’t the high school kind of a, you know, we don’t call it high school **laughs**
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[RR]: **laughs**
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[SR]: And, so, I did that. It's all British type of education, you know. Like you have a junior high, we don't have anything like that, you know, so. So, I did that and went to college. College was in Dehradun, DAV College. Which was, it’s a very, kind of Indian famous college. Did my BA degree there. And that’s it.
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[RR]: So, you said your father worked with the British oilfields?
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[SR]: inaudible was the company, accountant company, accounts company in London. He worked for them but, then only worked in the Middle East because of the oil companies.
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[RR]: I see. And did your mother work?
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[SR]: No.
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[RR]: So, what was your life like in India, when you were there at boarding school?
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[SR]: I have very good memories. I loved being in boarding school, and all the nuns were the headmistress, and everybody was from Ireland, Irish. And Sister this and, you know, Sister Agnes, and **laughs** but I enjoyed it. I really did. It was—I learned how to write in Hindi, because that was the main purpose and I learned about my religion, which is Hindu. And, but I did go to church also **laughs** You know I was just fascinated by Jesus Christ. You know, as a story reading, you know. So, I was fascinated, what happened, and ‘til today, if there is the rogue movies on or the Ben Hur is on, I want to see it. So, you know it was a fascination of that, so and my father always said, all religions are almost same, this is the same thing. So, it doesn't matter if you're in church or mosque or anywhere, it is a place to pay your respect.
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[RR]: Was the rest of your family accepting of your dabbling, or are you, what religion do you identify as?
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[SR]: Hindu. I am Hindu and, oh yeah, all of them. My father was very broad-minded, and he he lived in Middle East while we were in the boarding school in India. And weekends, we will go to my grandma, and she took care of us. And, come Monday we will be back in the boarding school **laughs**
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[RR]: I see. Do you have any siblings?
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[SR]: I have, I have two sisters now. My older sister died in 2007. And I have two brothers, one lives in London, my older brother, and my sister one lives in Canada, Vancouver. And one sister is in India, Lucknow.
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[RR]: Okay. And what are their names?
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[SR]: Okay, my older sister's name was Kusum. K u s u m. And then Kiran was my other sister, the one in Vancouver. And my sister who lives in India, her name is Aruna. And my brothers, the one who lives in London, Adarsh. He’s been in London for 60 years now. And my brother lives in California, Anil.
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[RR]: And when did you come to the United States as an immigrant?
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[SR]: As an immigrant, I got married to American, so you know, and I came in ’67. 1967. I was married in India to my American husband in ‘66 and came to America via Honolulu, instead of coming from New York.
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[RR]: Oh, I see **laughs**
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[SR]: Because we traveled the all The Pacif--Southeast Asia. So my port of entry was Honolulu.
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[RR]: How did you and your husband meet? You mentioned he was in the Peace Corps.
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[SR]: Well, we used to go, there was a Indo-American, you know my aunt was kind of a member of this Indo-American thing we do and we just invite them to our house. So they can taste Indian food, you know inaudible and these were peaceful volunteers. Again started by President Kennedy, the program. And, he was in my hometown inaudible and, so, I met him through the parties and, you know, coming to our house, you know. And then, my father, my father had retired, he had come to India in ’64. So he and my ex-husband became very good friends, you know.
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[RR]: I see. So you met in 1965?
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[SR]: Oh, I met him in 1964.
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[RR]: Oh, I see, okay. … So, had been working in Vietnam prior to that time?
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[SR]: No.
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[RR]: Okay.
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[SR]: He was in Peace Corps. When he left the Peace Corps with me, you know, we came to America. He was hired by state department. So, I lived with my in-laws, American in-laws, and he came to Washington DC. And with the State Department, and they say that, it's called Foreign Service that's what it is, but a lot **laughs** lot of people used to say that maybe CIA, because State Department.
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[RR]: I see.
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[SR]: You know what I mean? But you don’t know. My husband never admitted it. But he never said, No, either. You know what I mean? But he was inaudible, I never asked, I was too young to ask all those questions, in those days. But, so you know. Then, I went to Washington DC, and I stayed with him there.
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[RR]: Were his in-laws living in Texas, or your in-laws, or?
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[SR]: In-laws were living in Oregon.
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[RR]: Oh, I see.
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[SR]: Eugene, Oregon.
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[RR]: What was living in Eugene like, at first?
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[SR]: Wonderful. My mother-in-law taught me, you know, in India we didn't have washing machines. Because the servants did the washing. So **laughs**
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[RR]: Oh **laughs**
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[SR]: And we didn't clean the house, because the servants cleaned the house. And I was, we were never junk, the kids were not allowed in the kitchen. So you know, everyone, so never learned anything about kitchen or anything. So, never did anything. So, she taught me, introduced me to the washing machine **laughs** vacuum **laughs** So all these things. That’s in the paper there.
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[RR]: Oh, I see. Okay.
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[SR]: And, you know, those are all new things to me. And as a young kid, as in my high school, I used to read Perry Mason a lot. I mean, I read a lot. And so, that was my interest. I always was interested in American Mafia, and Perry Mason, anything to do with that. And when I came to United States, the biggest surprise was that Perry Mason was on TV **laughs**
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[RR]: **laughs**
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[SR]: And I was so thrilled. Oh my god, I can see now. So, you know, these are the things. They were good things, you know, they mattered. Those are good memories. And America was different.
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[RR]: What did you expect?
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[SR]: I didn’t expect anything, because I didn’t know anything about America. And was nervous, inaudible 20 year old, coming to the city and you're meeting your in-laws for the first time. And **laughs** it’s hard. But, you know, they were just so nice, still are, you know, my mother-in-law, ex mother-in-law, we still communicate—she’s hundred years old.
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[RR]: Wow.
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[SR]: Yeah. And she’s got all her faculties. Good for her. And, you know, so America was, it was like, Wow. But, I didn't expect it to be so big. ‘Til, you know, I was here. We were invited to lot of schools in Oregon, the Coos Bay Area where they moved to. And Coos Bay is a beautiful, beautiful, by the sea, where the sea lions are, on the coast.
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[RR]: Oh wow.
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[SR]: It is, it is the most beautiful little—and I was the only Indian there. So, you can see. I missed my food, but I couldn’t get anything, there was no Indian stores there **laughs** So, you know, you kind of say, “Okay, I don’t even know how to cook,” so that’s it. inaudible be fine and—but Coos Bay was beautiful. And I learned my ex-husband’s family was avid, every year they went to Idaho for the hunting.
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[RR]: Did you go with them?
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[SR]: Oh yeah! I was, I went with them, they--I'm not in favor of guns, never was, and I didn't even, I still, I’ve never held a gun, but I was a good spotter. Like Partridge and Chukars, hunting for that, I will spot something, and I will tell my father-in-law and my husband. And they went deer hunting also, I went with them. I went camping with them to, I have not known camping so, British Columbia, we went camping. You know, they were outdoors people, you know, and they taught me a lot. Idaho was beautiful, the mount--the little hills. When you're hunting for Chukars, you have to go up the hill, down the hill **laughs**
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[RR]: **laughs**
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[SR]: All these places. And, so you know, it was, it was a very good experience. I don't think very many Indians learned that. And, so, and I’m thankful for that. Because, those are good memories, you know.
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[RR]: Must have been quite a difference to move, then to DC.
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[SR]: Yeah, DC was, I loved DC. That's where I came to know there were one Indian restaurant called Tandoor. So, I was kind of happy. But then, I wanted to learn something. I never used to wear makeup or anything, you know. In India, you don't do that, you know. It’s like, schools they don’t allow even your hair to be, it has to be in a plait, you know, braid. You call it braid, I call it plait **laughs** And, so, you know, no nail polish, no lipstick, Catholic schools, you know, very strict. So, you know, so my husband used to be learning the Vietnamese and going to his classes and, we lived in Arlington, across from the Arlington Cemetery
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[RR]: Oh okay, I’m from Vienna.
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[SR]: You’re from Vienna?
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[RR]: Yes. Virginia, in Fairfax County, sorry **laughs**
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[SR]: Oh, I have been to Fairfax County.
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[RR]: Oh okay, yeah.
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[SR]: I’ve been to Richmond, and Williamsburg, and all these places. But, you know the Washington DC was excellent. I learnt there to be little bit more independent. I didn't drive, so I took transportation from Arlington, crossing the George, the bridge, George Washington Bridge, going to Georgetown, and then go to Connecticut Avenue. There was a school, they taught you, you Know, little etiquettes and this and that. I wanted to learn that, you know, so it was like a modelling school, but not modelling modelling. You know. And teach you how put makeup on, or how to add and this and that. So, I just joined that, had fun. **laughs** Wanted to do something and both my husband, my husband from England and my ex-husband, they didn't want me to work. Not that they force, they never told me, and I never expected to work because, in India, you go to college, you get a degree, I was Major in History, you go there and that’s it. And then you get married, and you have servants who were doing the work, so you don’t inaudible nothing. You have kitty parties, you know and little lunch parties there inaudible that’s it. I'm talking about my level, I'm not recommended poor people. You know. Poor people are the servants, you know. I’m talking about upper middle-class kind of, that's what my family was. And, we never worked for our education, we never worked at all. That's why I admire American kids, parents make them work. And I think that's a very Important, because you learn. In India, girls were in my days, it is changed now. Everybody works now, and which is a good thing, because my days, it was, you did your, education was a number one. You have to go to college, and so you went to college and then you got married. And you always got married with the well-off person. And that's it. I rebelled against it. So. So my way out was, well I met this Gary Bishop. That was when he met that time. And he offered me way out. I liked him, but I didn't love him, you know. But, he says I will learn to love him. So that, one of those things, which later on **laughs** But he was, he still is, I see him every year. I love his wife, and I have a beautiful daughter from him and I can't, you know, my daughter is just really beautiful. And we share that. So, India is kind of good place **laughs** in those days.
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[RR]: So, you were in DC and then you moved after that?
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[SR]: No. I was in DC and then, he trained for one year, and he's good at languages. He knew little bit of my Indian language too. No, no, broken, kind of thing. He loves India, he still does. And after DC, then he was going to go to Vietnam, and I couldn't travel because I was still not a citizen, inaudible. And so, that's why I went to Bombay. I didn't want to stay back here. I was still very, you know, in ’68, I was still very kind of nervous, so you know, I said, I want to go back to Bombay. And, I want to live there if American Embassy will allow. So they were kind of, that I'm not U. S. citizen, I'm just, I'm still Indian citizen. And something happened, you know, what can they do, but they were very nice, State Department, and they said, Okay, you can stay in Bombay, and you can go to the commissary in American Embassy there, you know, to get—and I wasn't sure, I didn’t want any commissary things, you know **laughs** So I went to Bombay and I was there for one year. And I got pregnant with my daughter, and in ’69, my daughter was born and she was American citizen. You know. Because, her father is American, and the American Embassy sent me huge flowers in the hospital and all that, you know. And, so after she was born, then I went back to America, to Oregon. And then I got my citizenship in 1970, they sent me, the State Department sent, they said, “Now you can. Once you become citizen, then you have to go where the wives live,” you know. And he was still in Vietnam, so they sent me to New York to get my citizenship, because New York has every day. Washington DC has one in three months or four months. And New York has every week. So, they sent me to New York, I studied the Constitution **laughs** and I became citizen in New York City. Yeah, this is all your government is doing. And, once I became citizen, then they paid for everything. I mean, they said I could live in Manila, I could live in Taipei, I could live in Bangkok. Because my husband is in Vietnam and he will visit you every three months, you know, but if you go to India, it's too far away. You know, little further. And inaudible, so I moved to Bangkok. So I was there for two years. That’s when I travelled to Hong Kong, by myself. American government paid for it, air America. And I went to Vietnam every 3 months, to visit my husband, and spend 15 days with him. And, so I went to Da Nang, went Saigon.
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[about ringing phone] Don’t worry about this, it’s medical, they are, my husband just turned 65, so they call all the time. And so, you know, so it was, Embassy was really good to us, and my daughter was a year old. So, we really had--so I had different, I think that prepared me to come back to America. Because I was still hesitant **laughs** it’s too far away. No. So then, I travelled by myself through Europe, with my daughter. And I came back to America. I had to be, my in-laws wanted to see their first grandchild. And she was, you know, so. I can show you my daughter’s picture. This is when she was in high school. She was a cheerleader.
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[RR]: Oh she’s beautiful.
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[SR]: This is my granddaughter.
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[RR]: Oh, her daughter?
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[SR]: Yeah. This is me.
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[RR]: So nice to have all of them.
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[SR]: And now she is—you can come with me.
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[RR]: Okay.
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[SR]: Here she is now. She got married. That’s my daughter.
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[RR]: Aww.
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[SR]: Isn’t she beautiful?
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[RR]: She is **laughs** She looks just like you **laughs**
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[SR]: She does, she does. That’s what my **laughs** my ex-husband always says, he says **laughs** I see you every day.
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[RR]: **laughs**
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[SR]: She lives in Phoenix. inaudible in Scottsdale inaudible and, so I go there every year.
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[RR]: So, when did you, let’s see, I came in on—so you went to to Oregon after, about a year with your daughter, and then, what did you do after that?
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[SR]: After that, I went back again to Bangkok. I stayed with my in-laws for nine months or so. And then I went back to Bangkok, that is when I decided I didn't want to come to America. But--and I didn’t want to be with my husband, we never lived together.
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[RR]: Oh yeah.
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[SR]: You know what I mean? But he’s the nicest guy on Earth, really. And we just grew apart. And I have a little girl, so, I decided I was going to stay in India. And so my brother-in-law was getting married, my husband's younger brother, and they wanted Barbara, Barbara is my daughter's name, she's named after, I knew an American Embassy secretary who couldn't have kids, so I, she was the godfather, the godmother of my daughter. So I named her after her. And so m y ex-husband said that Barbara has to be flower girl in the wedding, you know. And, you know, me being, I was so naïve. I was young, I was so naïve, I said, Okay. But, I'm not coming. So, he said, “Okay, when you decide where you want to live then I will send your daughter back to you.” You know, “I will bring her back to you,” you know. And inaudible okay. And I believed him. And once my daughter left, she was about 3 and a half years, almost 4 years old, I never saw her for 16 years. ‘Till she turned sixteen, my ex-husband. That’s the only thing he apologizes now, but he was hurt too. I can understand that. So, he wanted to punish me. You know, people do lot of things and there is a reason behind it, you know what I mean?
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[RR]: Yeah.
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[SR]: And, you have to understand that. Because I'm hurting, but he's hurting too. So, you have to realize that. And then I met my second husband, David, he was in India, yeah, he was working with some German company there. And you know, we fell in love and my divorce came through and I moved to London. I stayed there for seven years. I was American Citizen. So, he decided to come back to, he wanted to come back to America, because American, one of the TransCo company, he used to work in Germany for them. And I have been. I lived in Germany inaudible a few day--a few year or so. And, so he wanted to come to America and the company was giving him this job. And me being American I could sponsor him, so I sponsor, that's when I came to America, again.
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[RR]: Wow. Where did you--
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[SR]: ’74.
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[RR]: Oh wow okay.
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[SR]: ‘74 I came to America and that's it, that's my life. And we went to Annapolis, Maryland, the most beautiful little town. I think East Coast is so beautiful, there’s so much history. Fascinates me. Annapolis I love, I will go back there any time. I loved Annapolis. And my son was born in ’75. So he is American citizen, he's actually British and American, but Indian government doesn't allow dual citizenship, so I lost my Indian citizen. So I am now American citizen. So then, by that time, I started loving this country a lot. And I kept in touch with my daughter, you know. So, David and I were together and then we, from Annapolis in ’76, we moved to Chicago. And, I never left Chicago. I fell in love with Chicago. You know, people are so nice in Midwest. They're open, you know. And things didn't work out with my second husband, and we’re still good friends, you know. Actually, he's my best friend in a way, he's the nicest person too. And he's got a good life and, but first time, my son, I brought him up by myself. And I asked for divorce 1979 and that's when I realized I have to work. Yeah. ’79.
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[RR]: So, what was your first job in the United States?
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[SR]: You would not **laughs** here I am, graduate, but you know, what can you do with History? Nothing. And, I’m not trained for anything and that's when this country gave me opportunity. I went to Saks Fifth Avenue, I'm looking for a job, and my brother was living here in Chicago with his girlfriend, now she's my sister-in-law. And so, you Know, I will leave my son with them and then I will go and look for a job. So my first job was I went to Saks Fifth Avenue, and then I just went upstairs to Human Resources **laughs** And I said, you know, Are you hiring? So they said, “Yeah.” She says, “Why don’t you fill out this thing?” So, I filled out the application and they asked me some question, which I told her I said, “I don't know how to answer these questions because I have never worked in my life.” And, so then, the manager came the one who was going to interview me, the manager of Saks Fifth Avenue, she was a wonderful Italian Lady, and, you know, she talked to me, and she says, “Why do you want to work at Saks Fifth Avenue?” I said, “Because I used to shop here. So, I just want to work here.” I liked the store. And, you know what, the minimum wage was $3.75 in those days, in ’79. They offered me $4.25 and I started as a salesperson. I started in the women's dresses. I learned, we used to write the bills by hand, now. The Saks Fifth Avenue was the old Saks Fifth Avenue, on Michigan Avenue. And, so I worked there. And then I was--they saw my flair in certain things. Then I worked for Couture. Went higher up, little bit. So I worked for the designers. The socialites used to come there and dress us. So, you know, I learned from that, from Mr. Rossi, who was my manager then. Then, I moved to jewelry. They said I will be good at jewelry. inaudible Apparently, I was good salesperson. Then my, then I met my husband in ’80. We lived together for three years, because I wanted to make sure my son likes, you know what I mean. And he did. He brought up my son. My son was 5 years old. And so he brought him up. I don't have any kids with Larry because, he said, Nicholas is my baby too, you know. Because he brought him up. He moved to--my brother had opened some restaurants in California and he wanted--my husband was in the restaurant business now. And he wanted Larry to come there and work in California. So, I had a Job—Oh, oh, by the way, I had the second job at Marshall Field's, Beauty Salon, booking the **laughs** That was a good job, Water Tower. You know, it taught me so much. I got my first credit card, a Saks Fifth Avenue credit card. I didn't have any bank account, I didn't have anything, because I never worked. So, from that one little card, I developed my credit. So, that opened up and I became more independent, and I think it gave me, this country, Chicago gave me my identity and everything. To deal with people, and I look forward to that. So I told Saks Fifth Avenue, I said, “You know, my husband is going to California, what do I do?” you know, “I don't want to leave.” And, they said, “Oh, we’ll transfer you to Beverly Hills Saks Fifth Avenue.” Oh, good, good, good. Okay. So, I worked in Beverly Hills for five years, yeah, we were there for five or six years. It's right across from Rodeo Drive, you know, Saks Fifth Avenue. Wonderful. I tell you Rebecca, I met all the film stars, I met all the TV stars. Because we used to supply, the, on consignment, jewelry and the dresses, things like that, for TV. And Christmas gifts for Christmas and, they will order, you know. I saw Elizabeth Taylor, you know. I saw, it just, that Saks Fifth Avenue opened up so much. And, so we got a little apartment in Beverly Hills, and my son went to school in Beverly Hills High with Angelina Jolie **laughs**
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[RR]: Wow **laughs**
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[SR]: Yeah. And he pa--he did his high school from there, Beverly Hills High. So, you know, it is fascinating what this country did. And then I came back-- then my husband wanted to come back to Chicago. He's a Chicago guy. He was born here, brought up here. And so, we came back to Chicago in 19, 1994. And I worked at Saks there too. inaudible my job, they transferred me, but I didn't like. It was the new store, the one now. I don't like that, before Saks used to be very personalized store. You know, we cater to the clientele. This is now, like, there's nothing you know, I didn't like it. So, I quit, after 17 years. And I got a job with the, on Oak Street with Pratesi, that is the high-end bed sheets and all. That's how I met Oprah. We did her bed in her Water Tower house, in those days. Pratesi’s bedsheet and little cover and, cost you for $5,000. Bed sheet set is about 2, to 3 thousand depending on what it is, you know, embroidered or not. It’s an Italian company in Milan. So, I got job and then BVLGARI opened in Michigan Avenue. And the manager there, Mira, very wonderful person, she used to shop at for Pratesi buying bedsheets for herself, and she recruited me. She wanted me to go to New York for the interview for BVLGARI, and they flew me there, in the morning, brought me back in the evening from New York.
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[RR]: Oh my gosh.
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[SR]: Yeah. And so I, and they offered me a job. And, you know what, they wanted me to do million and over. And my husband said, “Do you want to go through this? You’re going to be so, you know, stressed out.” And, so you know, I said no to them. And I stayed with Pratesi. And then Tiffany approached me, and I got that job. So ten years I was with them. So, you know, my life, knowing nothing, to this. So I attribute all that to Chicago. I do. This is my city if I, when I die, I told him, my ashes should be thrown in the Lake Michigan **laughs** I just love this city.
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[RR]: So your co-workers, how were your interactions with them—
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[SR]: Very good.
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[RR]: It sounds like you had a lot of opportunity for advancement.
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[SR]: Yes, yes. But I, I never wanted to be in the management. It was fun to talk to people, the customers. Especially in Tiffany. Maggie Daley was my customer, Mayor Daley’s wife. And, lot of big people, like Boeing. Boeing used to have a office here. And they were my customers, they ordered a lot of flatware, sterling silver inaudible flatware, the one they bought it was 76,000 from Tiffany. So, you know, I sold them that. And, people coming from Japan, people coming from everywhere, they want to go to Tiffany. Because that's an American store. It's like Cartier. You know, so. But I had, I had most wonderful time was in Tiffany. Really. Hard work. But, you enjoyed it. Met so many brides. Did the bride thing with them.
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[RR]: Must have been fun.
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[SR]: Yeah, it kind of teaches you, how people, you know, you walk with them, and they asked your opinion, so you have to give it to them. See what, you know, to me, that was kind of challenging. To know people, and especially, people with money. You know, they can, they can tricky. And I don’t blame them, because because they deserve it, you know, they’re spending money, Jesus. You better cater to them. And service is something, all these stores, they require that, personal service. And, I like that. Made some good friends.
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[RR]: Did you have any challenges making friends?
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[SR]: No. My husband says that I can talk to a stranger on the street **laughs** and become friends. He says that to me. And that is, my husband is very quiet. I don’t think he makes, you know, he talks but not like I do. I will make friend when walking a person down the street. So. And that also, was, maybe it wasn't me, but I think working with the job, talking that, you know.
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[RR]: Did any of those friends help you adapt to living in Chicago? Or?
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[SR]: No. I was pretty well adapted with Chicago by then.
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[RR]: You’ve moved so much **laughs**
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[SR]: Yeah. I was pretty—and I fell in love with Chicago, and I told my husband, Now my brother wants us to move to California, but I, no, no, no, no. This is my city. This is where, and you know, I'm just, I know every little inch of Chicago. And I—then I learned to drive in California, late. And I was in a very bad accident. We were moving to Chicago, and we had two cars, so I was driving one and my husband was driving. And I had a very bad accident on one of these highways, you know. And he said, “We are moving to Chicago. We're going to live downtown,” we live on 850 North Jewett, behind Water Tower for 27 years. Rented it. And, just loved it, and I could walk to Tiffany, which is on Michigan Avenue. And so he says, “You don’t need to drive.” I was a little hesitant, you know, nervous. And so. So. And, Chicago offered me that opportunity too, which wasn’t in L. A. was the—L. A. I drove, but Chicago transportation is so easy. I can go to Skokie, from here, only transportation. So, I started going to my Indian movies, started going to Devon Avenue, I take two trains to go to Devon Avenue. So, I am, this is home, to me. I go to Chicago every week, to see my movies **laughs** On Columbus drive, you know, AMC.
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[RR]: Yeah. Did you join any community groups, or--?
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[SR]: No. Most of my friends were, I didn't know any Indian people here, because when you're married to foreigner, you know, I don't know. I became more friends with my husband's friends. So, those are my best friends, you know. And then the people I met at Tiffany, you know, salesgirls, and, there are two of them, who are, we still go and have lunch and all that, we do. And so, I really don't know any Indian family, but I am a very fond of my Indian classical music and Indian music. And, my husband, my husband he can’t go because he doesn't understand, but you know he has, he taught me, he says, “You want to go, you should go. Enjoy it” and you know, these are the best time of my life. I don't have any, I don't have to cater to anybody, or anything. I’m my own person. I just have to go to movie, or I decide to go to where I met these people. On the Bollywood thing was going on in Meadow, Rolling Meadows. And my husband said, I pick you up at 1 o’ clock or whatever it ends. So, which he did, it ended at 2 o’ clock. And, so he came and picked me up and that’s it. And, now you can do Uber. So.
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[RR]: Even easier.
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[SR]: Yes. So, you know. So I’m pretty--my best, then I meant Pakistani girl from Pakistan. Now she’s my very good friend. She's the only Pakistani, Indian, we speak same language, so there's no difference. It is just two governments are fighting, but not people. And, so she’s my best friend. Fazia. Through her, then I knew few people. But not, you know, closer. But her, I am very close to.
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[RR]: I see. Are there any other ways that you maintain connections with your Indian Heritage? Aside from—
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[SR]: Movies.
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[RR]: --watching movies.
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[SR]: Going to the concerts. Singers come in. I’ll go and see, and I see from Chicago Symphony. There are some Indian musicians, classical musicians come, I go and see them. I’m member of Chicago, inaudible donate something, you kind of this and you always think. So, and I recently started going to Opera.
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[RR]: Oh wow **laughs**
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[SR]: I love Opera. I saw it at Millennium Park, free. There were 10 Sopranos and Tenors, you know, and I just fell in love with it. So, went to my first opera **laughs** So, you know, that’s why, to me, this is it. This is my city. And you know, if I want my Indian fix, I can go to Devon Avenue **laughs** I know some people there. India Book House, the lady who manages that, I know her very well. And, she's like a friend, she keeps my magazines, so I can go after 2 months, and pick those magazines up. And things like that. So, I keep in touch. I think, as you get older, you become more closer to your heritage, or whatever it is. You know, so I have no difficulties. The only thing Is, I can't speak my language too well. I understand everything. I understand Marati, Bengali, Indian languages, I understand Punjabi, and Hindi is my main, but I can't speak. Because, for 50 years I haven't spoken to anybody. Because I didn't have any Indian friends. I understand Urdhu very well, but speaking, English comes to inaudible first. Somebody’s talking to me in Hindi, and I, English is coming in there, you know. You have to train your—once I’m left alone with somebody for a week, I'm sure it will come back. I can write in Hindi and everything. So.
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[RR]: Oh. Oh, go ahead.
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[SR]: So, that's my connection with Indian thing.
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[RR]: How did you spend your leisure time, when you first moved here? Before you started going to the Opera.
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[SR]: I worked. I worked in retail for 30 years. So—
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[RR]: Then you had a child **laughs**
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[SR]: Then I had a child.
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[RR]: Yeah.
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[SR]: Yeah. And we moved around. So, normally, when you work, it is work and come home. Oh, and I did learn to cook, when I was Annapolis. I went to school there, cooking school, learned the French cooking and Italian. And met Julia Child in Washington DC. The teacher who taught me, Phoebe, she was from Boston and she used to love Indian food. So, I will, I learned my Indian food through the books, okay. And I never realized that whenever I’m cooking, it gives me peace. And I think, in America, in Annapolis Maryland in ‘70s, I dawned that I like to learn what they're doing. And—
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[RR]: Cooking or in general?
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[SR]: Cooking. Cooking and I learned that in Annapolis, Maryland. In that little school run by Phoebe. And Phoebe was friends with Julia Child, when she came to Washington DC. She said, Let's go to Washington DC **laughs** Annapolis is only 20 minutes away from Washington DC, so. So we went to inaudible and met her. I was awed by Julia Child. Wonderful person. And, so cooking is my spare time active. Now I can cook Thai, Indian, Chinese, American, of course, Italian, good, French, good, American food, sure.
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[RR]: That’s enviable **laughs**
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[SR]: inaudible
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[RR]: It’s enviable **laughs**
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[SR]: No, I like cooking, you know. You’re down the dumps sometimes, and go to kitchen. I read cookbooks. And I have lots of them. I read them and then I say, “Okay, I’m gonna cook this today.” So, that gives me, to me, gives me comfort. My husband's friends and they all are my, they all love to come for dinner. So, at least once or twice a week, we have somebody over for dinner. Those are close friends. So, I cook for them. And I've been cooking Christmas dinners and Thanksgivings for 30 years **laughs**
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[RR]: Wow **laughs**
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[SR]: inaudible **laughs**
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[RR]: I just did my first one and that was so much **laughs**
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[SR]: But, you know what, it comes to you. When I was your age, I didn't know it, nothing. You know, so, it comes, as you grow up. As people get old, they—I think, it's meant to be like that. You know, you have your kid, and then family, and all. So now, I had a big Thanksgiving dinner here. My brother-in-law comes with his wife, so now it's going to be Christmas dinner **laughs** So that's how I spend my inaudible I go to library a lot. Oak Park Library. Wonderful library. I go there a lot.
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[RR]: So, do you have any experiences from your early years that really shaped your life? Know you mentioned, like, being outdoors in Oregon and Idaho. Or anything else in particular?
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[SR]: I, I think. You know, I was a very shy person, when I was growing up. But, you know, my father was very broad-minded. And he gave us, he was very in favor, not like typical Indian, you know, our culture is more towards men, you know. inaudible My father wasn’t. He preferred his daughters more than the sons. And he gave us all the freedom, so I had this kind of a freedom meeting with guys, or anybody. He never minded it. We were not, our family was, it was Indian in religious way, but, lot of things my father, being abroad so much, he spent 40 years of his life. So, was, by him, that he told us, you guys are grown up, you know what--but the only thing he required was go in groups. No body going alone. Understandable. And we all went in groups, you know. That's how it was. So. But coming here, this country gave me my life. My focus on life. And I think working helps you. It gives you pride, that you did, end of the day, you think, “Oh, good customer she liked me, I must have done something good,” right? Right. For the company, for me, and for my own thing. So, you know, I owe a lot to this country. I lived other places, but this is what gave me stability, you know. For what, who I am, Sudha, you know. But at heart, I’m still very Indian. Anything Indian going, I like to go. **laughs**
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[RR]: How do you think that you have contributed to or impacted American life?
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[SR]: I hope I have. I have made some people happy selling them good things. I think it’s, my friends, my husband's friends, and my family, which is American family, I think they, they’re awed by how much I travelled. Of course, they make fun of me getting married three times. But **laughs** But, they’re fascinated by certain things, you know, I have done, you know. Like, there lot of Americans who have never been to Vietnam during that time. I have and, inaudible it's fascinating. How a foreigner can come and, you know. But, it is all because I was here, that gave me opportunity. And another thing is, I just do what I want to do. That freedom, this country gave me. Like, you know, there was a mafia trial, family trial, in 2009, 2008. I went I was retired. And I went every day to downtown court, listen to that. I loved it. The lawyers, the way they argued, and all. That just fascinated me. The forensics science and all these things. And, you know, where else you can do that? Tell me, where else you can do that?
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[RR]: Not many places.
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[SR]: No. This country does that. Gives you all that. You know when people, when they make, there is a bad thing is in every country. And, bad with the good goes hand-in-hand, you know, whatever it is. But, mostly, this has given me the best, best of everything. And my husband, I love him dearly. He's the love of my life. I said, “You came late.” He said, “I was a little baby when you were already” **laughs** Which is true. This is when we got married, here, in Puerto Vallarta inaudible
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[RR]: Aww
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[SR]: That’s my husband.
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[RR]: In Puerto Vallarta, you said?
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[SR]: No, we went to honeymoon to Puerto Vallarta.
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[RR]: Oh, oh I see.
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[SR]: Yeah, we got married here, in Drake hotel. That’s me and him. I don’t look 9 years older than him.
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[RR]: No **laughs**
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[SR]: I told him that. And my grandkids are blue-eyed and blonde hair, how about that? So.
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[RR]: What was, just going back to some of the earlier days, what was the hardest part or the best part of your experiences then?
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[SR]: The hardest part was when my mother died. She was only 32. I was 8 years old, no 9, yeah, 8 and a half or 9. They kept me away from it, but that was the hardest part. I was her favorite, you know we had same thing. She was a, she was a very good singer, that's how I got the music thing, you know, and in India, girl has to learn to dance and music is a must. This is a part of our life. Music goes hand-in-hand within India, no matter what happens, everybody starts dancing **laughs** That’s the way our culture is, goes. And, yeah, that was the hard part. And, of course, leaving India in ’66 **laughs** We travelled for four months, before we went to, when I came to America in ’67, my husband was preparing me, every year inaudible I think I can’t go. No, no, no no, I want to go back **laughs** You know, it’s a big step. But I’m glad I came.
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[RR]: What kind of contrast do you see between life in Indiana and the United States? I know you’ve touched on some. You know, India now is pretty like American, you know, people are traveling more. My days, people didn't travel that much, you know. So if I'm comparing with that time, it was different. A lot different. I think, our lives in India were very controlled, discipline, can’t talk to the elders with the high voice or, you know, with loud or anything. We never did that. And I think I still follow that and respected our teachers, which was a, in India, it's very important. You have to respect your teacher, because he's giving you education and guru. That's what we call them, they’re the highest, you know. So, that's was the difference. And another thing is, I didn't know anything about discrimination. Maybe I grew up isolated, I know there's a discrimination in India because, my, in India lot of, in my days, lot of North Indian marrying South Indian? No. Because South Indians are dark, so here comes to discrimination. You know, lot of Indian will say, we don’t have discrimination. No, no, no. You do. I think we have big, and if you're getting married, the wife has to be fair. Excuse me? What about the guy? You know? He can be ugly as ever, can be. But he wants fair wife. So, you know, those are the things. Kind of, that's the difference. So when we will talk here about Blacks and Latinos, whatever, it's a discrimination, but it’s a, it’s the same kind. You know what I mean? There is no difference, as far as I'm concerned. There bad people in every race and there are good people in every race. And you have to accept that. You really have to believe that. You cannot see that everybody's, you know, you know, like put them in one box saying, “No, they have to be bad.” You know, you can’t do that and I learnt that here too. Learned in India, but I was, I think I was so naïve. But now I go back to India, I was in there in 2004, and my sister still lives there. She’s got three servants and all that. And, you know, if I wanted to drink a cup of tea and she will scream from the living room, “Oh, make two teas,” you know. And I said, “What? He’s cooking something.” Why distract him? But, I've forgotten, I used to do that too. So, you know, there are certain things I don't think I could live in India, with that. I can do myself quickly than my servant. And he’s cooking already, he's chopping something, and he has to leave everything. And my sister said, “You have been too long in there.” I said, “You know, I can easily make, boil the water and make a cup of tea.” She says, “Not the proper tea.” Okay. So, you know, it’s, those are the things.
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[RR]: How often do you visit?
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[SR]: You know, last time I visited was 2004. It's so expensive, and you know, I’m not a rich person. I was married to rich guys, but I chose to marry a **laughs** who didn’t have, you know, much. You know, it’s a regular American, you know. Day to day. And I’m happiest, the most, like that. I really am. I'm so happy that--Americans are very giving people. Most of them. But I just, there are certain things in India, they bother me. You know, it’s like, woman's role, things like that. That’s why, I think, I never married an Indian guy, I said **laughs** inaudible
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[RR]: That’s very interesting.
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[SR]: **laughs** Not that the Indian guys are like that, no no. Nowadays, I see some of these guys, doctors and all that. You know, they’re pretty outgoing. Which is so good. But in India, there still guys like that. Lots of them.
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[RR]: Here too **laughs**
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[SR]: Controlling. And--my husband is playing golf today. It's so beautiful.
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[RR]: It’s so nice out.
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[SR]: Yeah, he went for golf.
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[RR]: Almost December.
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[SR]: Which is good for him.
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[RR]: Are there any other memories or experiences that you want to have recorded for future listeners?
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[SR]: Like
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[RR]: Any, anything that you remember inaudible—
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[SR]: You know, things, I miss most is, when Diwali comes. In India, it is such a festive. I miss that. I miss giving that gifts and this and that. We, I celebrate Diwali here. My American friends come in from the inaudible and my husband really lights candles everywhere. I have taught him few things **laughs** but I do miss that. There is another festival, Holi, which is throwing the color water and throwing, putting color on your face. I miss that a lot. I really miss that. We used to have so much fun in Bombay, with that. Everybody just gets on the streets and you don't even know people and they come and hug you and inaudible I miss that. I miss some of the Indian festivals.
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[RR]: Do you go to any of the festivals—
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[SR]: Here? No. To tell you the truth, I just don't know anybody. I do go to Eid, which is a Muslim, because of my friend, Fazia. And I always go, they always invite me, and I think sometimes I'm only Hindu there **laughs** But you know, Muslim peoples are, Pakistani people are just like, they were once Indian too. Before the British divided us. They are us. You know, they’re same people. So, I enjoy doing that. Going to Eid, but that’s, no Indian thing, I don't know anybody like inaudible I wish I **laughs** I try **laughs**
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[RR]: And is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up the recording?
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[SR]: I can add that you, you have been wonderful.
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[RR]: Oh, thank-you **laughs**
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[SR]: **laughs** It was so interesting talking to you.
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[RR]: Likewise. I love hearing about your experiences.
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[SR]: Oh no, I enjoyed it. And tell--I hope they can send me some more information about some concerts or whatever is coming out.
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[RR]: Sure. Yeah, I’ll get you in touch with someone.
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[SR]: Please, please. Because, music-wise, anytime. I’ll come. And I just, I find interesting when I seen Indian people here. Makes me proud, you know?