WEBVTT 00:00:03.300 --> 00:00:07.900 [MARINA LABARTHE]: Okay. This is an interview with... 00:00:07.900 --> 00:00:08.400 [MRIDU SEKHAR]: Mridu 00:00:08.600 --> 00:00:10.200 [ML]: Mi, Mid, Midru 00:00:10.300 --> 00:00:10.800 [MS]: Mridu 00:00:10.900 --> 00:00:12.900 [ML]: **laughs** Midru, Midru 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:13.800 [MS]: Mri - du 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:14.900 [ML]: Mridu 00:00:14.900 --> 00:00:15.500 [MS]: Mmm 00:00:15.500 --> 00:00:16.600 [MLMS]: Sekhar 00:00:16.700 --> 00:00:17.200 [MS]: Right. 00:00:17.400 --> 00:00:28.200 [ML]: As as part of the Indo American Heritage Museum's Masala Chat Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted on October-- 00:00:28.200 --> 00:00:28.800 [MS]: 7th 00:00:28.900 --> 00:00:40.800 [ML]: **laughing** October 7th, at 7:22pm, at the narrator's home. Mridru-- 00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:41.700 [MS]: Mridu 00:00:41.800 --> 00:00:57.400 [ML]: Mridu is being interviewed by Marina Labarthe of the Indo American Heritage Museum. Okay... So, can I have you start by spelling your first and last name? 00:00:57.500 --> 00:01:05.200 [MS]: M R I D U S E K H A R 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.500 [ML]: Okay. When and where were you born? 00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:20.150 [MS]: I was born in Madras, in the state of Tamil Nadu, in India. I was born on August 28th, 1947. 00:01:21.100 --> 00:01:23.170 [ML]: Did you grow up there, or? 00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:56.300 [MS]: I grew up all over India. I was born right after Independence. And my father at that time work to in a Italian factory, in, outside Delhi, in a place called Tughlakabad. My maternal grandparents lived in Madras, which is now called Chennai. And it was customary for a woman to go to her maternal parents’ home to deliver the baby. So that's how I was born in Chennai. 00:01:56.500 --> 00:02:01.100 [ML]: Oh. What languages do you speak growing up? 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:08.000 [MS]: Growing up I spoke, Tamil, and Hindi, and English. 00:02:08.300 [ML]: Okay. Did you learn them all at the same time, or? 00:02:11.200 --> 00:02:12.100 [MS]: At the same time, yeah. 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:12.900 [ML]: Yeah? Wow. Where did you go to school in India? 00:02:15.700 --> 00:02:44.500 [MS]: Again, I went to school **laughing** all over India. My grandparents, my maternal grandparents lived in New Delhi, in the 50s, when I was school-going age. And my paternal grandparents lived in Udaipur, in Rajasthan. And my father was, uh, in Udaipur for a while. He left Tughlakabad, he left this Italian company because he was not pleased with their policies with the Indians and-- 00:02:45.200 --> 00:03:14.300 You know, India had become independent, but they were, behaving in a racist manner. So he quit and he went to Udaipur, and he took a job in Udaipur, which-- And then he took a job in, um, Mumbai. In what is Mumbai now, but it used to be called Bombay. So, while he was traveling around, my brother was born. And so I was growing-- It was normal for kids to grow up with their grandparents while the parents are trying to settle down. 00:03:14.600 --> 00:03:50.000 So, I spent the first, maybe until 1956, in New Delhi. And maybe a few months here and there, in Udaipur. And then I went with my parents to Bombay. And then, I was again, back in Udaipur in, when I was 10, in ’57, because my parents went off to Germany. And when they came back in ’59, I was sent to a residential school, called Rishi Valley, in the south of India. 00:03:50.800 --> 00:04:20.700 But--because my parents thought that that was a good education, and it was run by a very liberal philosopher, that believed in a liberal education. So I got a very liberal education. So I spent my high school years in Rishi Valley School. And then I moved Bombay for my college. And then I moved to Chennai, back to Chennai, for my graduate school. And then I move to the US because I got married. 00:04:20.700 --> 00:04:49.500 And, at age of 21, I came to the US with my husband, who had a--was doing a masters degree in, at Brown University. And I was doing a master's degree at Boston College. And that was in 1969. So by 1969, when I was 21 or 22, I had a master's degree from India. 00:04:49.500 --> 00:05:14.700 I was getting a master's degree in the US, and doing a PhD. And my husband was, similarly had a bachelor's degree in India. He came here to do a master's degree, and then he was doing an MBA at Harvard. So, after he finished his MBA and I finished my PhD, in Physics, we moved to Chicago. And we’ve Chicago ever since. 00:05:15.300 --> 00:05:47.000 What's different about many people who, many Indians who immigrated at that time, is that there were, I would say probably two groups. But, one group was coming here as immigrants. Padma and Rangi came as immigrants, with a opportunity to work in this country. And, we came here to go to school. So, the ’60s saw a lot of Indians coming here to go to school, graduate school primarily. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.300 And we were in that group. And Padma and Rangi I think were in the other group. 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:54.000 [ML]: That’s very interesting. 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:54.550 [MS]: Yeah. 00:05:54.700 --> 00:05:58.500 [ML]: Did you practice any religion while you were living in India, or here? 00:05:59.200 --> 00:06:32.100 [MS]: Well, we were-- I was born in newly-independent India. An India that had an--that had a vision of a secular society, where religion did not--was a personal matter. My parents and my grandparents were secular, and religion was something that was practiced in the home. So, there was always gods and goddesses and, you know, religious rites, and Vedic rites, and so on. 00:06:32.600 --> 00:07:01.800 But, it did not play a role in our education, or our professional lives. So I would say, yes we did grow up Hindu. I had a Hindu wedding. And, which is probably probably the biggest Hindu ceremony I've had. And when we came to the US, there was no temples at that time, but then subsequently a temples started popping up. At the time when we came in ’69, at least in the East Coast--we came to Providence Rhode Island. 00:07:02.300 --> 00:07:25.100 And then we went to Boston, Massachusetts. And I can't remember there being any temples at the time that we could go to. I think the first temple that we went to was in Chicago when the Hindu temple started opening up. You know, so, I think it was in the ‘70s that Indians started building temples in the US. But I may be wrong, you know. 00:07:25.700 --> 00:07:27.500 [ML]: Wow, I didn't realize it took so-- 00:07:27.500 --> 00:07:57.400 [MS]: It took quite a while, I think. Because Hinduism is, um, is a religion that is practiced much in the home. There are no, there are no rites that have to be done in a temple. So, you know, everybody has a little shrine in their home. And they may say a prayer in the morning or in the evening. They may light the candles. They may celebrate festivals. Right now it's the Festival of Navratri, which is nine nights. And, you know, you light candles in the house then. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:24.400 You know, so, it's mostly a home-based, traditional way of remembering your religion. And then of course you have, you know, ceremonies like weddings, or, you know, around births, deaths. Death is a very important ceremony, which-- but, you know, coming here at 21, I didn’t, we didn’t face any real, you know, personal hardships like death, for a very long time. 00:08:24.400 --> 00:08:36.400 [ML]: That’s very interesting. You mentioned the biggest ceremony in your life was your Hindu wedding? Tell me a little bit about Hindu wedding looks like, yours in particular. 00:08:36.400 --> 00:09:07.700 [MS]: Okay. Our Hindu wedding-- Hindu weddings are, there are some basic similarities, but then there are some differences based on which part of India you are coming from. So, in South India, the Hindu wedding, the par--the girl's family usually rents a big hall. And the priest is invited. And in my Hind--particular Hindu wedding was over three events, let me say. 00:09:08.100 --> 00:09:39.700 You know, in the one evening, which--where the groom comes and they exchange--you know--they exchange gifts. And they--it’s basically like an engagement ceremony. And then, the next morning is the religious wedding itself, which starts early, with lots of music, and the priests and everything--all the family and so on. And it is still conducted like that. So, that’s, that’s in the morning. And then in the evening, you have the reception, which is basically a party. 00:09:41.000 --> 00:10:10.900 So, our wedding happened just before we came to the US. So, it was January 1969. And my husband was supposed to join Brown University at the end of January, and because of, you know, choosing good dates by horoscope and all that, the that date was chosen was January 19th. And my husband’s departure date was January 26th. His parents came from Calcutta, which was their home. 00:10:11.500 --> 00:10:43.600 Though they were South Indians, they had-- his father worked in a company in Calcutta. My parents worked--my father worked in a company in Bombay. So, you know, our base of friends and, you know, were mostly in these two cities. Whereas all our relatives were in South India. So we got married in South India, with the--with the--a two-day ceremony, on the 18th evening and the 19th morning. And then, we flew to Calcutta, for a reception and a party in Calcutta. 00:10:44.100 --> 00:11:17.500 And then we flew to Bombay, for a reception and a party in Bombay. And then the next day my husband took off for Boston, and to Providence, Rhode Island. And it took me six months to complete my master’s, because I was still finishing up my master’s, and for me to get a visa to join him. Even though I had admission to a college, the visa situation for students was a little difficult because they were already seeing that lots of students were coming here on student visas and then, overstaying their stay. 00:11:17.900 --> 00:11:47.500 So they wanted proof that we would not overstay, that we had property in India, we had relatives in India, we had family in India, and so we were gonna go back. Obviously they were wrong, because we didn’t go back. But, **laughs** so. I, I joined him in the middle of June. And he was still in the middle of a master’s degree with Brown University, and joined Providence College. And we were there ’69 to ’70. Then ’70 he moved to Boston.  00:11:48.100 --> 00:12:18.500 And I finished my master's there, and moved to a PhD program at Boston College. So he did a two-year MBA in Boston. And I did a four-year PhD at Providence. So, I finished all my coursework, and my, and my exams, by, you know, ’73. So one year we were commuting. Like, I was commuting, and he was here. And we already had a child, which was-- lots of complications. 00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:50.900 So, because, you know, we started-- I start my PhD in ’70. And he started his MBA program in ’70. And I got pregnant. So ’71 our first son was born, right as I was doing my PhD. But somehow or the other, I finished my qualifiers, and he moved in ’72 summer to Chicago, for a job with Baxter, in Deerfield. And, I was commuting for a year. And I came here and I finished my PhD in ’74. So, it was a-- 00:12:50.900 --> 00:12:53.300 [ML]: A four-year PhD. That’s-- 00:12:52.000 --> 00:13:14.200 [MS]: A four-year PhD. In Physics. Well, I had to-- You know it was really, uh hard, because once you had the baby, and your husband had a job here, you're going to either transfer your credits and start over, with a new professor, or you’re going to somehow muddle through, and **laughing** get your PhD. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.600 [ML]: Wow, that sounds really, like-- 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.000 [MS]: Intense! 00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:22.200 [ML]: Must have been a four--four very tough years. **laughs** 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:52.400 [MS]: It was very intense, for sure. And we had this little boy, and the first child. And my mother came here from India to help me with the baby, in '71. He was born in March of '71. And she came from India, to help me with the baby's delivery, and, you know, while I was still studying. It was hard. Because my husband had a fellowship, that barely paid the rent. So, and I had a, a assistantship, teaching assistantship. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:14:23.700 Which, you know, allowed us to pay for food, and so on. And we had to take some loans, and, it was a very hard time. So, he, you know--We, he had a fellowship from a company that's now defunct that, you know, employed him in the summertime. They employed me as well. Because we were both science majors. He was doing a Material Science degree. He had done a Material Science degree and an MBA. And I was doing a PhD in Physics. So it was possible for us to get employment in the technical fields. 00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:54.500 And we got employment with a computer company, called NCR. They used to make the cash registers, in those days. Those companies are now defunct. I mean you're talking about, you know, what, 45 years ago? And, so my mom used to take care of the baby. And I would go to school and, or work in the summer time. And, it was hard. Then when my husband moved here, we suddenly saw a jump in our income. But I was determined that I wasn’t gonna start over with my PhD. 00:14:54.800 --> 00:15:04.300 So I wanted to just finish it off. And that’s what I did. And I had--You know, my aunt came to visit, and stayed with me for a while. They were all help--lots of help for the baby. 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.600 [ML]: That’s wonderful. **Mridu laughs** Sounds like it. Do you have a good relationship with your parents, and your family? 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:40.300 [MS]: Yeah, yeah. We have a very--And that's common in India, you know, at least among most of our families. I don’t know nowadays. You know, and, we were-- My parents, my mother came to visit, for the baby. And then she stayed for nine months. And she would’ve stayed longer, if India had not, if the war in India had not started. So the--India went, you know, Pakistan-- There was a huge civil war in Pakistan. 00:15:40.300 --> 00:15:05.800 And there was a huge amount of refugees. And, that was the war in which East Pakistan separated from, and became Bangladesh, and West Pakistan became Pakistan. So they had two parts of Pakistan. One in the West and this little bit in the East, which was a creation by the British--that they tried to take all the places that had high population of Muslims, and make it into Pakistan. 00:15:06.200 --> 00:16:21.300 And, um. These two big island were one country, which did not even have a language in common. So, you know, you had--just because they had the same religion, you know, so. 00:16:22.300 --> 00:16:23.600 [ML]: That's really interesting. 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.500 [MS]: Ah yeah... I’ve lived through Indian history, and also American history , you know? 00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:32.200 [ML]: Yeah. Because you have family there, and you live here, that’s-- 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:36.100 [MS]: Family here. And I’ll tell you later on about my experience with Russian history so **laughs** 00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:43.300 [ML]: Yeah! Padma told me that you lived in Russia for some time. We'll definitely get there. **laughs** I would love to hear about that. 00:16:43.100 --> 00:17:11.500 [MS]: Yeah, yeah. So, you know. My mother came for when the baby--but when, when India came to war, she got really nervous, and she wanted to be on the next flight back. So she went back in December of ’91. ’71, sorry, ’71. When the war broke out, and she went back. And I had to fend for myself. And, you know, babysitters, and daycare centers, and--It was quite a bit of hassle. 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:44.000 And, then in ’73-’74, my, uh, aunt-- I’d, I had gone to India in ’70--I’m trying to think--’71. After the baby was born--’72. I went to India when the baby was one year old. And, you know, I met my aunts and uncle, and I tried to convince them to come visit me. So, they said, “Okay we'll come and visit you and take care of the baby for a few months. And then see the country and come back.” 00:17:44.600 --> 00:18:13.200 And, that was a huge deal, because at that time, you know, that’s like a whole lifetime of savings, you know? But they decided they would do that. And so my aunt came and she actually watched the baby, when he was two years old, so that I could go to the library and finish writing up my PhD. And after I finished that, then she and her husband--my uncle and she--went around the US, and saw places, and then went back to India. 00:18:13.600 --> 00:18:15.150 [ML]: Yeah, that’s, that’s beautiful! 00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:15.800 [MS]: It is. **laughs** 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:30.300 [ML]: I, I’m very intrigued by, the family dynamics that you're talking about. Can you talk a little bit about the, what differences you see in families maybe here, rather than where you come from, exactly? 00:18:30.600 --> 00:19:04.600 [MS]: Well, I think family dynamics are-- In India, part of the tradition, you know, you have to think of-- Today it’s different, because you're talking 45 years later. So 45 years later, you’re talking of, maybe, two generations? Because, we are now, what? grandchildren? But at that time, you know, there were joint families even. Where a patriarch and a matriarch will have all their children, and their daughters-in-law, and their grandchildren, living in the same house. 00:19:04.600 --> 00:19:34.300 I mean, if they were in the same town, they often lived in the same house. So, both on my father’s side and my mother’s side, we grew up with cousins. You know, lots of cousins. And I was particularly close to my mother’s side cousins. Maybe more than my father’s sides cousins, because my father had many, many siblings and not all of them were there. But at least you met them once a year, or twice a year. You know, and all the weddings. Weddings were a huge deal, that you met people. 00:19:35.400 --> 00:20:09.700 So, I think that that joint family system has broken down now. It doesn't exist that much anymore. But at that time because, you know, if there were two brothers or two sisters, or four of, four children. I mean most of them, most of the people had, you know, between four and eight children, at that time. It wasn’t--they were not Catholic, but you know, family planning practice was not that prevalent in the pre-independence India. And, after that, India took a very concerted effort to try to reduce the, you know, women to have two children. 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:42.000 And, so now, you know, the population is more or less at a stable, you know, replacement level. So, it's healthy, but it’s not exploding like some other countries, like Egypt, and so on. So, I was very close to my aunts and uncles. But, you know, the question of them, them coming here is an unusual thing. You know, my mother’s sisters---she had two sisters and one brother. And she was the oldest. 00:20:42.500 --> 00:21:11.200 And the sisters were very close. So the sisters treated each other's children--and still do, as a matter of fact--as their own. If they went shopping, and they bought me something, they would buy the other sisters’ children-- You know, so, that kind of relationship. And that is still close. And I think, to some degree, that’s the same with my husband’s side. My husband has-- My husband’s father was the only child. 00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:40.800 But on his mother’s side, she had two brothers. And their children-- And he, you know, my husband and his siblings, were very close. Well, you know. Obviously, after we came away to the US, that closeness, you know, sort of-- It's more, it’s less frequent that you meet each other. But in our case, we were the oldest to come here. I was--my husband and I are the oldest in our families. 00:21:40.200 --> 00:22:09.200 You know, my, my mother was the oldest. My father was the second oldest. But my mother was the oldest. And I was the oldest. And on my husband’s side, his father was the only child so he-- And his mother, you know, was not the oldest, but he was the oldest, in that family. So when two oldest get married, you know, and then-- So we were the first to come here. Then his brother came, and then his sister came. 00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:41.400 And on my side, my brother didn’t come, but my cousins came. I had one cousin who’s, who got married to a man here, and, then a couple of other cousins came here to go to college. And, so now, we have many cousins here. We have a few cousins in India, but my brother still lives in India. And his family, and his life is still in India. Which you know, at that time it was unusual. Because, you know, if one person went, then all the other people followed, I’m sure that’s the case in Peru. 00:22:41.800 --> 00:22:55.200 [ML]: Yeah, it definitely is similar. Um, a lot of my family is still in Peru, but, definitely a lot of people that I’ve met from South America, their **laughing** families come right after--exactly 00:22:53.600 --> 00:23:24.000 [MS]: Yeah, yeah. They keep--yeah one right after the other and so on. So, in my case, my cousins came. And, but each of them came individually, they did not come like-- So, my mother’s, on my mother's side, my brother didn’t come. He was, he decided to stay there. But my, my mother’s next sister has two children, and her oldest daughter married a man here, and moved here. 00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:54.900 Her next son went to school at Texas A&M, and then stayed here. And he married a girl who moved here, and so they made a family here. Then the next sister, had two daughters, one daughter came here to go to school at Loyola, and is still here. The other daughter didn’t. And then she has one brother, and those two children came here, got PhDs, and went back to India, and are working in India. So-- 00:23:55.100 --> 00:24:24.900 In our family, it’s been, each, each one who has decided to move to the US, has made an individual decision. It’s not like a whole train of-- On my father's side, my father had an older brother, and he had two sons. One son is India, one son is here. The next one is my father. One child is in India, one child is here. The third one, one child is in England, the other child is in Switzerland. 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:54.100 Then the fourth one, one child is in Kansas, the other child is in Dubai. And, so, you know, and younger--my father’s youngest uncle-- Oh, then the fifth one has children. The sixth one, both children are in the US. They both married, and came to the US. So it is sort of slightly different angle. And then the last one, he himself moved to the US, and so he has children here. 00:24:54.300 --> 00:25:24.000 So, you know, their immigration, but, you know, in all cases, my husband and I were the first ones to move here. So, in a way, you know, it-- And I think you’ll find every family different. You know? And maybe it has to do with age, maybe it has to do with socioeconomic status, because, you know-- While, Padma and I are from more or less similar Indian histories, where our parents were educated. 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:55.100 And, my father was involved in the Indian Freedom Movement. And, my, you know, grandfather was also educated. The mothers were not; the women were not. I think the first-- My mother, and my mother-in-law, and my grandmother, they all knew how to read and write. But, they completed school--my mother and my mother-in-law completed school, after they got married. 00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:20.400 So they were not-- And you know, my mother-in-law got some college education from the correspondence course. My mother didn’t do that, either, so. But before that women were not-- But they knew how to read and write. And they could read, you know, the epics and, you know, mythology. And, some of them even knew how to read English, not just their own language. 00:26:21.500 --> 00:26:22.600 [ML]: That’s very interesting. 00:26:22.600 --> 00:26:23.400 [MS]: Yeah **laughs** 00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:31.400 [ML]: So, were you the, the first one in your family to attend university, or? Like-- 00:26:32.300 --> 00:26:34.900 [MS]: Well, you know, I-- it wasn’t-- 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.300 [ML]: Or the, the first woman, I should say, in your family, to attend 00:26:38.000 --> 00:27:08.500 [MS]: No, no. Because, on my father’s--all the men were educated. When it came to the women, my aunts were educated, in college. My mother didn’t go to college, because she chose not to go, because she got married. I mean, she could’ve gone to college, and gotten married. It wouldn't have mattered. But she chose not to. My mother-in-law had no choice. She was not even--she got married at 10. So she didn't know any better. 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:36.400 My mother at least got married at 16. But, she was ready to--she was not ready to go to college at that time. She got pregnant right away, and she didn’t wanna do that. But my aunts went to college. Her sisters went to college. And my father had only one sister. And she went to college after she got married. And it was hard, but my grandfather was very persistent that she should be educated. There was a huge emphasis on education. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:28:06.900 But that was as much of a family thing, as anything else, because you will not find it necessarily in all families. But Padma’s family’s very similar to ours, in that sense. Because Padma’s entire family’s educated. Her sisters, you know, her older sister, herself. Her mother may not have been educated, very much. But, you know, her father believed in--they didn’t believe that women should be kept behind, or-- They didn’t have any rigid, you know-- 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:36.600 They were secular people; like, they were liberalists. You know? And, my--at that-- India was a different, you know, the India at Independence was very visionary. Secularism was, like, you know, a temple **laughing**, you know? They built a temple to secularism, in that sense. And all religious holidays were celebrated. All schools and colleges had no religious affiliations. 00:28:36.800 --> 00:29:08.500 You know, the only religious affiliations that educational institutions had were the Catholics, who were allowed to, you know, have educational institutions that, you know, were based on religion. But, secularism was very, emphatically-- And it was Jawaharlal Nehru’s India. And, on the world stage, India was avowed to secularism, and to non-alignment. 00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:36.800 So they said, you know, “We don’t--we believe in democracy, but we’re not aligning ourselves to the East or the West.” And so the United Nations and in the Security Council, and so on, they would try to abstain from voting, or try to, you know, create, take the middle path. But, since then, of course, you know, the situation in India has changed a lot. There’s more, there’s-- 00:29:37.300 --> 00:29:51.500 Secularism is still, is nowadays not considered to be practically, um, practical. Let me put it that way. **laughs** It makes me somewhat sad.  00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:53.300 [ML]: How so? 00:29:54.600 --> 00:30:22.900 [MS]: Um, because, you know, India is not Hindu. It's not-- India and Hindu are not synonymous. Though the word “Hindu” means “India,” in the sense of geography, the people who came from that part of the world were called “Hindu.” So it was not a religion. It became a religion, because people from that part of the world also practiced a religion. But it was more of a geographical, uh-- 00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:55.200 (Marina coughs on Mridu’s spicy food and they discuss, laugh.) 00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:27.000 [MS]: So, you know, I think, you're talking about 45 years. So the world changes. You know, India got muscular, Pakistan has slipped. So it’s been a difficult-- My father was very, very emotional about the creation of Pakistan, because they did not-- My grandfather, my father’s father, had a job in what is now Pakistan, in a place called Hyderabad, Sindh. And, so many of my uncles were born in what is now in Pakistan. 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:57.500 And, um. The idea of creating a separate country because two--for people of a different religion, was an alien idea in India, historically. So, they were not for that idea. And they felt that the British, really you know, did not do India any favors. And Mahatma Gandhi was extremely heartbroken. He would prefer to wait, and work it out. 00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:28.300 But, it didn’t happen. And, there were a lot of Hindu nationalists that felt like he, you know, sold India down the river, to try to make peace with the Muslim part of India. So, it’s a long story. But, my father and, you know, my family grew up in that. And I was born like immediately afterwards. And the leaders of India were very visionary. 00:32:28.800 --> 00:32:58.500 So, there was a sense of hope, and world peace, and, you know, all these ideals, that today seem to be very, unpractical **laughs**. Though, of course, you know, the--what’s going on in Colombia is very heartwarming, you know. And for him to get the Peace Prize this year is pretty heartwarming, so. So I got I got involved in politics at that-- 00:32:58.600 --> 00:33:04.400 My, you know, my family was always talking, “What’s going on?” You know, participating in that. So, I-- 00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:20.000 [ML]: Oh, no I definitely have questions about that, also. But, um. So, now to, to take a turn on things, a little bit. What were, what did you expect your life would be like in the United States before you came? Did you have any expectations?  00:33:20.800 --> 00:33:50.100 [MS]: **Coughs** We were newlyweds. My expectations-- I can tell you quite clearly that I expected that I would get an education. And it would be a, like a, you know, two-years or four-year trip. And we’d see some parts of United States. We would have fun. We would--it would be a long honeymoon. And then we would get our degrees, and we’d go back to India. Because he had already been working there. He had already had a good job there. 00:33:50.600 --> 00:34:19.300 And, I felt very involved in, you know, being part of this new India that was going to be so successful. Which it was to a large degree, but, you know. So we thought we were going back. And, actually, we did not apply for our green cards for a full--almost 20 years. You know, we got our diplomas. We came in '69. 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:49.200 We finished our education. I finished my education in ’74. And he finished his education in '72. Got jobs based on education, and then the company applied for the green card. You know, work permit and green card. And I think we got the greed card pretty quickly, by ’74, ’76. I don't remember exactly, but. But we didn’t apply for our citizenship, until ’88. 00:34:50.400 --> 00:35:21.900 Because we kept thinking we were going back. And, then, you knopw, we had had one child, and we another child. And then, he took a trip back to India. And he’s like, “Well, you know, we spent so much money. We have so much money--so much debt. And we cannot every pay it off if we don’t go-- if we don’t stay in America. America is the place you can make some money, and. So, it took us till ’88 to say, “Let’s get citizenship. We are here. Living as non-citizens for how long?” You know? 00:35:22.600 --> 00:35:38.400 I mean, I was already, almost 40! Right? I was born in ’47. This was ’88. So, that was my first voting experience **laughs**. 00:35:38.600 --> 00:35:51.600 [ML]: Woah. Um, so what did, what did you first notice when came to the United States? What was the most striking thing, or what challenges did you face? I know you were having the baby and (inaudible)-- 00:35:51.600 --> 00:36:22.900 [MS]: Well, there was-- Yeah, I think, you know. See we don’t have language challenges. So, that’s once thing. We were facing challenges of finance. We’re newlyweds. So, I personally could not tell whether I was--I was pretty excited about the new life of being, you know, a married woman with my own home, and all that--you like, usual newlyweds, Right? But, the challenge of money was severe. But there was a great deal of self-confidence. 00:36:22.900 --> 00:36:48.400 We’d raise our children, you know, as good citizens. We didn’t worry about raising them as, with, you know, with religious backgrounds, or we didn’t take them to temples all the time. It was a--when we moved to Chicago and they had the new temple going, they had language classes. And, I took our older son to those language classes. 00:36:49.200 --> 00:37:21.200 And I found, it really not, um, not comfortable. He was not a, he was not very integrated into that community. And I didn’t feel comfortable in that community, because it was not very secular. ‘Cause, you know, even in India, you had people-- In fact to some extent I think what happens, is that when people immigrate, they become more nationalistic about their nation of origin than they would be if they were living there! 00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:51.300 **Laughs** So, that discomfort, led us to stop taking the kids to these lessons, and so on. Because we thought it was more important for them to integrate, grow up wholesome where they were. Because, you know, your environment is in--you have to be comfortable in the environment you’re in. There’s no point having loyalty to some place halfway across the world. It’s part of your history; that doesn’t go away anywhere. 00:37:51.300 --> 00:38:02.200 And it’s important to understand it. But a child who’s born wherever he is--Where, if you’re born in Singapore, you’ve got to be comfortable in Singapore, until you’re living there. You know? So. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:09.600 [ML]: How did you keep your culture and heritage alive when you--with your kids? It, um. 00:38:10.100 --> 00:38:38.700 [MS]: It’s a good question, you know, because we had sons, okay? And, sons, by their very nature, are not driven to cultural trappings, you know. I mean it’s--Padma had daughters, and we used to often look at that, you know? I mean for one thing, we always ate Indian food at home. If we went out, we would eat, you know the kids would eat hot dogs, hamburgers, etc. But, for a long time, we cooked only Indian food at home. 00:38:38.700 --> 00:38:58.500 It took us, I think until the kids were in high school, that I might make enchiladas, or hot dogs, or mac-n-cheese, or something at home at home. Otherwise we made Indian food. And even today, we make Indian food. So, yeah. 00:38:57.700 --> 00:38:58.900 [ML]: Very good Indian food **laughs** 00:38:58.900 --> 00:39:45.100 (Another discussion about the spiciness of the food Marina ate.) 00:39:45.100 --> 00:40:15.000 [MS]: So, in terms of culture, you know, we took them to India every two years. So, there--for them it's their--and my parents, and my husband's parents would come and visit. So, they visited also, quite frequently. My parents, my parents especially, because my father was working in the Soviet Union in those days. And so, you know, they were already traveling abroad. That was um--And, so you know, they went-- 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:42.200 For them, it was relatives. And then I-- You know, my cousin, and my brother-in-law, her--Chandra's brother, went to college in Gainesville, Florida. And, so he moved to Chicago. And he lives in Chicago. And he has two sons, and a wife. And so, that family, extended family’s right here. 00:40:42.800 --> 00:41:12.200 Then my cousin, who got--My aunt who came here? her daughter--got married to a man, and moved here. And she had children. So, she had two sons. So, we made it a point to keep in touch with each other. So we would celebrate Christmases and Thanksgivings together in somebody's house--in one of the relatives’, one of the cousins’. So, when our children got married, or their children got married-- 00:41:12.700 --> 00:41:42.100 You know, these kids had been meeting each other, at least once a year, so they’ve grown up as cousins. So, though they are second cousins now, you know, they were--my first cousin’s children are second cousins to my children. And my children’s children are also, now, really connected with them. So, culture came as much from the sense of relationship, and visits to India, every two years. They didn’t learn the language. 00:41:42.100 --> 00:42:15.900 They’re not fluent in the language. In fact, they don’t know the language, to be honest, okay? But they know all the stories, you know? They--um--all the epics, and all the mythology. Because there are lots book, mythological books in English. And, as long as the grandparents, were alive they used to go visit them, at least once in two years. So the relationship between the grandparents, with the aunts and uncles, and the grandaunts and granduncles, you know--have, have sustained. 00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:40.000 So I would for our children, India means relatives. India means Indian food, you know. We used to try to celebrate all the holidays, but it’s dropped off over the years. There are still families, now, that are-- I have cousins and so who live in western suburbs, who are very religious about practicing all the holidays. You know. 00:42:40.600 --> 00:43:02.600 [ML]: That’s very interesting. And did, um. So, when you, when you first moved to the US, when you, you were adapting, you know to life in the US, did you have any particular friends that you remember, just, particularly helping you more than other people? 00:43:02.600 --> 00:43:33.300 [MS]: Well, you know, it's funny you say that because, when we moved to Providence, Rhode Island, we were the oldest. And I remember Providence, Rhode Island had a total of 70 Indians. I could **laughs**, I mean-- So, and being Indian was unique. Being an Indian woman, who wore a sari, and, I was-- You know, I was completely, quite ethnic. I didn’t wear Western clothes. And I was uncomfortable in Western clothes. It took me a long time to start wearing Western clothes. 00:43:34.100 --> 00:44:06.500 And especially if it was a formal event; I felt comfortable only being formally dressed in Indian clothes. Though I was going, doing my PhD and I was, you know, writing papers, and I was meeting people. And, you know, I was very comfortable in my own skin. But, that’s what I did. So, I would say we helped others. We were the first to come here. So, in Providence, Rhode Island, I remember the first year after we-- 00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:39.000 We came in ’69, and in ’70, the group of Indians who came, we started to host them in our homes, provide them food, provide them help, and so on. But, the support syst--Indian support system we had, was maybe other Indians who had just come. But, we also had some host families, Western host families that were very helpful. So, it was a different time, you know. It was--you didn’t, you didn’t find many Indians. 00:44:39.900 --> 00:45:07.800 And when we moved to Chicago, we didn’t know any Indians here. You know. So, we were-- I can’t remember a single Indian-- (to husband) Do you remember any Indians here? But I don’t remember having any Indian friends here. We made friends with people who came later on. In the ‘70s, you know. And the first time we met Rangi and Padma, was in ’74, I want to say. 00:45:09.700 --> 00:45:20.700 Because, their daughter was born in ’72, January. And, we met them, when she was a year-and-a-half. So ’73, ’74. 00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:34.800 [ML]: That’s very interesting. Did--You mentioned the, the sari. What--can you talk to me a little bit more about that? What did it mean to you? Do you still wear it sometimes? 00:45:34.800 --> 00:46:04.600 [MS]: Oh yeah. I’m very comfortable. My approach to the way I live-- Okay, so I’ll tell you a little bit, and then I come back to it, if that’s okay. So if I look at my life, you know, there was the life that was spent in India before I got married. Then we came to the US, and I was a student, and then I got a job, and I pursued a profession. And then I started a business. I started started going to Soviet Union. And then, you know, I retired form that business. 00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:34.000 Then my parents died. So there’s like these phases of life, right? And, what I found most, um, comfortable is that, wherever I go, I try to blend in as much as I can. Maybe in the first years when I came here, I used to wear a sari and my, you know, Indianness was part of me, and I didn’t know how to blend in, in terms of dress. 00:46:34.300 --> 00:47:03.400 But English is my language. So I speak English. So that doesn’t change wherever I go. But, when I’m in India, I dress Indian. I don’t dress Western; I feel very awkward dressing Western. When I’m in the US, I dress Western, or I’m in jeans or whatever. But I do wear saris a lot, like you know, last weekend we had a banquet, and I wore a sari. So sari becomes like, a special attire, you know. We go to temple sometimes. 00:47:03.600 --> 00:47:20.000 Not very regularly, but, sometimes. But we do, you know, do a lot of cultural-- I’m the board president for a cultural, Indian cultural arts organization, in my retired life. That just so happened. 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:22.100 [ML]: The, uh, Kalapria? 00:47:22.100 --> [MS]: Kalapria **laughing**, right. 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:29.800 [ML]: Yeah, no I did my research. **laugh together* I do have questions about that. 00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:30.900 [MS]: Sure, sure, sure, yeah. 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:32.900 [ML]: Uh, you talked about-- 00:47:32.900 --> 00:47:56.900 [MS]: So when I went to Russia, you know, I would dress in Western clothes, because they wear Western clothes there. Because,you know-- The thing is, I found very soon is, if I wore a sari, or if I dressed, you know, in a certain way, my outward appearance became the focus of the relationship. And that was not comfortable. 00:47:57.100 --> 00:48:25.600 So, if I wanted to build a lasting relationship with a human being, you know, you have to eliminate all the barriers. And all, the focus areas, you know. The focus has to be you and me. That has to be the focus if you want to build a relationship. So, I had some wonderful, lasting relationships in Russia, even with my broken Russian. I spoke some Russian but I insisted-- Because, you know, initially you speak only thru the interpreter. 00:48:26.600 --> 00:48:59.000 And, my Russian would never be good enough to speak through an intern--to speak directly. So I became, I started to use the interpreter, to help me with my language, so that I could look at you and talk to you, and instead of me talking to the interpreter and the interpreter talking to you, you know. You understand what I mean? And, very often that’s the case. So, even when you look at political meetings, and so on, the interpreter is talking to their interpreter. 00:48:59.600 --> 00:49:29.700 You’re not looking at each other and communicating. So, even if you're gonna speak in English, it’s better to look at each other and communicate. And you know, so that’s, that was one of the-- And the clothes was one of the biggest things. ‘Cause I would go to interviews. That’s when I changed my clothing. ‘Cause when you're in college, doing you're PhD, you’re in a different world. You know, you can go sit in the classroom and nobody’s--you know, you’re not the focus of attention. And you’re studying and it doesn’t matter what clothes you wear. 00:49:29.700 --> 00:49:57.400 And it doesn’t matter what, what you are doing there. But when I started going for interviews, for a job, I found the whole conversation was about my Indianness! People rarely bothered to learn about, what I knew, and what my profession--or how I could be professionally. And that was unfortunately. Because the business world--and I mean I’m talking about ’74. 00:49:59.600 --> 00:50:31.700 So I actually had to take a very, conscious step of going shopping, cutting my hair--I had long hair--and changing my attire. So, that when I go to interview we’re talking about the job. It took me that first interview, when I went that way, I got the job right away. But before that, it was--you know, the conversation would last forever about my sari, and about my bindi, and about how long it took to do my hair, and where was I born. 00:50:31.900 --> 00:51:01.700 You know just the whole-- That’s not a barrier that the men had. Because in India men wore suits, too. So that’s what made me change my-- But I didn’t have much help in figuring out what was appropriate. You know, women were just coming into the workforce, so they didn’t-- You know, there were a lot of at the time. ‘Cause ’74, if you look at American life, there were very few women in the workforce. 00:51:01.700 --> 00:51:31.000 Pantsuits were not considered appropriate attire. You had to wear a dress. For me it was a huge step to wear a dress, after not having worn pants. You know, I mean pantsuits were--after not having worn a dress. And how you did your hair and what kind of makeup you had--all that, there are certain cultural norms. And who’s to teach you those cultural norms? I had to learn it from the storekeeper. 00:51:31.700 --> 00:51:37.700 You know, like, in those days it was Marshall Fields. **laughs** 00:51:37.700 --> 00:51:50.000 [ML]: Oh my goodness! So, how were you--it sounds like you were, you felt like you were treated differently in terms of opportunities. Like to advance or to get jobs? 00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:19.600 [MS]: Well, I think that I was treated differently. How shall I put it? I never felt discriminated against. Maybe, I was discriminated against because I was a woman. Maybe I was discriminated against because, as a foreigner, I would not blend in. But, I don’t think I ever got discriminated again-- 00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:50.000 You know, there weren’t that many women in the workforce, to be very blunt. And especially at the level in the profession that I was seeking, so in my life I haven’t ever felt that I would’ve liked this job but it was given to a man, but maybe it was because I didn’t want it, I don’t know. I mean I’m sure there were situations. 00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:20.000 After I got my PhD in physics it was the height of the Nixon recession and there were no jobs to be had in 74. Jobs in academia and teaching and so on, but... There were a couple of places that said you won’t be able to work as hard as we need you to work because you’re a mother and you have a child. I had to pretend to be as good as a man, you know, that I didn’t have a child. 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:50.000 And my poor husband had to do the same because we did a lot of sharing of child care duties. If I dropped the child at the day care center, I would pick up the child, I could go a little bit late and he could leave a little bit early. He had a longer, earlier start and he had a later finish kind of thing. It’s been an interesting-- 00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:34.000 I can’t say I’m a feminist, but I do believe that that was the time when women uh, I was the sole PhD in Boston college that year. In a couple of years there were some Chinese PhDs. But there were not that many American women going into the sciences. History and literature, but that was also the case in India in those days. Now you’ve got so many women scientists. So many women in physics which is a very male subject. [ML]: I love it! 00:54:38.000 --> 00:55:08.000 [MS]: It is good, and you know, I was listening to a speaker the other day, an economist, he said as the women go through the pipeline, because more women are going to undergraduate school, more women are graduating from undergraduate school, more women are going into graduate school and more women are graduating from graduate school. So it’s not just that women seem to finish 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:38.000 their education more frequently than men. So the women are going to be that bulge of resource and if we don’t treat them properly the economy is going to lose a very important resource. So she was talking about how the society has to be adjusted with better childcare and better, she said 30% of the couples, women are 00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:55.000 the heads of households. Because they are earning more than the men. But the family life hasn’t changed that much **laughs** 00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:07.000 [ML]: It's interesting to think about those statistics. Wow, very interesting. So, you mentioned a little bit ago about the Soviet Union. Padma told me a little bit about you going there, but could you talk a little more about that? 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:37.000 [MS]: Okay. my father, let me tell you, all this geopolitical history. India was nonaligned when India became non-independent. So they had an equal relationship w the Soviet Union and the u.s. and the west. So since India had a good relationship w the Soviet Union, and the Soviet Union didn’t have a good relationship with the rest of the world, they gave India very special status. 00:56:37.000 --> 00:57:07.000 My father was working in India and his company sent him to the Soviet Union, to sell Indian products and the Soviet Union gave India special-- I think 00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:37.000 it was in the late 60s that India signed a friendship treaty. A 20-year friendship treaty with the Soviet Union. Where India could buy a defense product from the Soviet Union for the equivalent of that purchase the Soviet Union would buy consumer products from India or whatever India manufactured. So my father got sent to the Soviet Union in 69, which is exactly 00:57:37.000 --> 00:58:07.000 the year that we came to the united states. And he was doing business for his company in the Soviet Union. Then in 82, he retired from that company, Siemens And he formed his own company. And he started doing business on his own. And in 87 or 85 when 00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:37.000 the Soviet Union started to open up, there was Gorbachev glass prehistoric and all of that (hard to hear). We visited from here and in 87 I left my job and I became an independent. Consultant. So I went to the Soviet Union to consult for his clients who happened to be the government ‘cause there was great curiosity in the Soviet Union in terms of 00:58:37.000 --> 00:59:07.000 technology with respect to the west. Now, both my husband and I were scientists he was an engineer and I was a scientist, and I went from physics to computers so in 87, 85, 86, 87, I went there for my father’s company to consult for them. On computers. In 87, they started to-- 00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:37.000 Gorbachev opened up to America and America started to say okay, we can sell certain specific products to the Soviet Union and so I got involved with that, I left the company, university of Chicago and started providing my father trading support from the u.s. so we sold high technology products which had to get certain clearance from the u.s. government, you know, high-powered 00:59:37.000 --> 01:00:07.000 computers and things like that. And I got access to some of the very interesting places within the Soviet Union because they wanted confidential consulting to evaluate where they were technologically with respect to the west, because they’d been a closed society and they had this idea that they were far far behind. And we had this idea that 01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:37.000 they were far far behind in certain areas, but they had found solutions in other areas that were different ways of thinking completely. So that’s how I started. And we started selling American products there in 89 and then in 91 they became separate countries and they wanted to revamp their health care system 01:00:37.000 --> 01:01:07.000 so I organized a conference for them to bring certain types of technologies and different types of people to interact with from all around the world. So I ran international conferences in 91, 93, 95, 94, all the way up to 98. That was very interesting. It was 01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:37.000 very fun. It was impressive and it was fun. I mean, now I can say that. But at that time I didn’t know what I was, you know. They wanted a conference and we did it. It was interesting because, you know, you had all these foreign companies that wanted to sell their products in the Soviet Union so we organized for them to have access to that market and we had western scientists and educators 01:01:37.000 --> 01:02:07.000 and physicians going and teaching them how to use these products. You have to create an intellectual environment. It’s not enough to just sell the product, I mean I can sell a computer, but how the computer is used and how its integrated into the society. You gotta have a professional community. So these conferences became really the professional community. 01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:37.000 And from that evolved a business model where we created this, we sold products and we sold training and we ran clinics that actually had practical use of those products so we evolved into a dental company ‘cause that was the first area of privatization in the Soviet Union. 01:02:37.000 --> 01:03:07.000 By ’93, ’94 health care was getting privatized. So we were on the first leg of the health acre privatization. We started with dentistry because it requires a little bit of capital to start a dental practice. So we set up clinics ourselves and we treated 01:03:07.000 --> 01:03:37.000 patients in those clinics and local doctors came and got trained while they were treating other patients, you know didactic training provided from western doctors that would fly from here and provide the training and get a chance to see a little bit of the world and then we sell the product. So it was a model of see one, do one, teach one. And then 01:03:37.000 --> 01:04:07.000 the people buy the products. So that model is still working. My father retired in 94 and I took over the company, a portion of it. What we did was, he had an Indian company but he also had an arm that did the American business. So in 94 he shut down the Indian part and I continued with the American part. And I ran it until 2008 01:04:07.000 --> 01:04:25.000 when I sold it to one of our biggest suppliers and retired. So that was my Soviet Union days between 87 and 2008. 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:31.000 [ML]: So when you retired, Padma told me, you got into politics much more? **laugh together** 01:04:36.000 --> 01:05:06.000 [MS]: Well, I got into politics, Padma is very generous...  My business life was extremely intense because having a company in Russia, and we sold in all the countries, we sold in Russia, ukraine, Pakistan, the Baltics, and then we also were in India. When I retired, I retired because I got an opportunity to sell the company, I was over 60 years old, my parents had been sick and one had died and then the other one died after 01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:37.000 I retired. So there was a lot of change. I came back and that was the year that Obama was standing for election. I’d always been interested in politics but I was more interested in--I had worked for the Kerry campaign, id worked for the gore campaign, but it was like a two weeks going and helping get out voter registration, it wasn’t that intense, you know? We didn’t feel at that time that it was a make or break. We didn’t feel like if Kerry lost the country was 01:05:37.000 --> 01:06:07.000 gonna go to dogs. Or that Reagan lost, my first election I had to vote for either George w. Bush or h.r. Bush--(??), or I can’t even remember. That was my first vote. But I voted for bill Clinton. So when I came back Hilary Clinton was running and Obama was running and I felt that Obama really sparked my excitement so I decided to throw myself 01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:37.000 into that campaign and I went to Florida and I campaigned for him and I saw part of the country that I never knew existed. Because you are living in this bubble of academic- we lived in the university of Chicago campus- and our children went to school there. It’s a different world. You know, people say Chicago 01:06:37.000 --> 01:07:07.000 is really segregated but university of Chicago campus you have- so, it was, Florida was an eye opener for me- going door to door campaigning, talking to the Cuban Americans, elderly Cuban Americans who are so...... And the young Cuban Americans who were Obama lovers. So I got involved in that. So I 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:37.000 got involved in that. So I was very happy to have Obama win. I wasn’t really really concerned about- I didn’t think it would’ve been horrible if McCain had won, but now I feel really concerned about trump. And I was very concerned about mitt Romney ‘cause mitt Romney was another not so great person. Forget it, the thing that attracted me to Obama was that he was a good person. He was a visionary. He looked at the world as 01:07:37.000 --> 01:08:07.000 we're all human beings. It reminded me of my childhood, when heru--(??) Was the prime minister of India and we stilled believed in Gandhi and principles and religion was a private matter that you experienced in your bedroom and your home. So, Obama’s life touched me in a way that I could see myself. So that was a moving experience to be 01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:37.000 working to get Obama elected. But the way they’ve treated Obama and the way the republicans have behaved it’s just made me very very passionate about- I mean I could’ve taken job with the Obama administration but my father was alive and my mother had died and my grandchildren were born and they were growing 01:08:37.000 --> 01:09:07.000 up so I threw myself into that. And then my son got divorced so it became even more intense that I spend time with my grandchildren. And then Obama’s 2012 election I almost felt he was one of my relatives... We were very involved. His campaign office was right down the street, our house was open for any campaign person to come and stay. So the whole year and a half from April of 01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:27.000 2011 until after the election people stayed with us till after the election and walked to work. And I was very involved in it. I went again to Florida but this time to Pensacola and I saw a different part... I mean, Alabama... You haven’t traveled probably to these places because of some of those places 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:30.000 [ML]: my parents live in Florida, so I know! 01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:52.000 [MS]: it’s a very difficult place. The racism is very visible there, it’s not visible here. When I spent my time in providence and Chicago I didn’t come across racism in the same way. 01:09:54.000 --> 01:10:01.000 [ML]: the racism in Florida could you talk a little more about the racism in the South, I guess in general?  01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:31.000 [MS]: I guess in Tampa I didn’t feel there was, it was racism, as much because Tampa, there’s the Cuban community, the younger Cubans and the older Cubans. And then there were African Americans but there was no- at least Tampa I thought it was more separated by socioeconomic status and then the issue of Cuba. Cuba was like front and center. And the elderly 01:10:31.000 --> 01:11:01.000 Cubans were really mad at the younger Cubans. But Pensacola, is northern Alabama. I drove a lot into Alabama because some of those northern parts of, which um, when you go door to door, some of the places I had a partner who was African American, people do things in pairs to go door to door. 01:11:01.000 --> 01:11:31.000 There were places where people let out the dogs when they saw her. And they weren’t as bad to me, partly because I dressed very professionally and clean and maybe they just- maybe I had the aura of a well-to-do woman. But the woman who was with me, who actually ran a cleaning service. So 01:11:31.000 --> 01:12:01.000 I saw a different stature of society. And I saw the dogs being let out and there are places where you know, you had two neighbors and their children are playing in the front yard. And they don’t stop their children from playing with each other, but their worldview, one thinks that Obama is the devil and the other believes that god will make sure that Obama wins the election, god is on our side. I mean either one is true. But understanding 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:31.000 this country, I just... It threw me into studying American history and African American history which I had not done. You think you know American history because you know the superficial outline of American history. Especially if you’re growing up in India, you know how much do you know of American history? I didn’t study much history in the first place, I was in the sciences and what you 01:12:31.000 --> 01:13:01.000 you know Mayflower, and Europe, Boston tea party, civil war, and maybe I could recite all the presidents or I knew the constitution and all that but African American history and the history of the plantations, it's just really troubling. And I think that most Indian immigrants 01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:31.000 don’t get into that story. So, that moved me a lot and it upset me very much that mitch McConnell was as anti-Obama as he was. So I made myself a promise in 2014 that I would go to Kentucky and have him elected out of office. So in 2014 I went to Kentucky and I campaigned for the lady who stood 01:13:31.000 --> 01:14:01.000 for the election, but she was disingenuous she didn’t want to admit that she had voted for Obama, which she had, and so the African Americans got insulted, she didn’t pick up any white votes, she just lost all the African American votes. They didn’t vote with passion. They said of course she voted for Obama so what’s the deal what are you ashamed of? I’m still upset that I could not get his head on a 01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:31.000 plaque... **laughs**. I mean he’s just evil. They’re all evil! Look at this, Paul Ryan, going around with trump. What the hell do they think! They think he’s gonna listen to them? After he gets elected? And today he’s saying that he’s pinching women and saying... He’s just an ugly guy. 01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:54.000 But it bothers me... It also bothers me that the people hate Hilary are not even articulating what they hate about her. She’s been committed to public service her whole life! Without earning a penny out of it! So anyway, I’m on my way to Florida again to campaign. 01:14:54.000 --> 01:15:05.000 [ML]: Oh, yeah. So what drew you Hilary’s campaign?  I mean, the fact that she’s a Democrat, and-- 01:15:05.000 --> 01:15:35.000 well, first of all I think that she is very competent. I wasn’t party politician, at least I didn’t think I was maybe 30 years ago or 20 years ago, but what happened is that the republican party is so out of step that you just sort of have to go, so obviously, you know, 01:15:35.000 --> 01:16:05.000 I’m really into it. And I think that Hilary’s a good, you know. Unfortunately, because of her experience, and certainly I can relate to a lot of her experience. Because I’m two months older than her, I was a working woman all the years that she was trying to do her public service work and so I can totally understand when people look 01:16:05.000 --> 01:16:07.000 at her, I can understand the desire for privacy, when you don’t say what you think because you don’t think that people are gonna accept it. You know, we grew up in a male society. There’s no question. So I can relate to a lot of her behavior... The feeling people have that she is not open is, why would I be open if every time even when 01:16:35.000 --> 01:17:05.000 I’m not open there’s no privacy. When she was in the white house they tore her up to pieces... They accused her of committing murder... You know, Vince foster, one of the people who worked for her committed suicide and they accused her of having murdered him! I mean it’s just that people have been pretty awful to her. I ask myself, why does she even want this job? When they’ve been so awful to her. Almost like she 01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:35.000 needs to prove that... Well we need to prove that...But also there isn’t another person right now, I don’t think that Bernie sanders would’ve been a good president! And Bernie sanders has been in the senate for thirty years and he has never helped a single other person get elected. He hasn’t campaigned for anybody else. He hasn’t been able to change one person’s mind on what they should do within the senate. So to think that he is going to be more effective, she’s been 01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:52.000 been a much, very effective senator, in New York. I can go on and on. So I’m going to Florida and I’ve been given the assignment that there are some 20,000 people who are registered to vote who may not have the right kind of ID’s. 01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:54.000 [ML]: Okay, what are you going to do? 01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:20.000 they’re gonna teach me what I’m supposed to do and I’ll do it. And I’ll be working, it’s a lot of fun I’ll tell you, because these volunteers want the job, you know, these kids who are there, the guy who is gonna be my "boss" is 27 years old. And he’ll tell me what I’m supposed to do. It’s all paperwork and stuff. They need like 40,000 lawyers. I’m not a lawyer, but I can handle paperwork. 01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:25.000 [ML]: That sounds fun, [MS]: It is! [ML]: you're going on Sunday right? 01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:55.000 [MS]: yes, and after I retired from my business and, you know, our children are all settled, married, and my grandchildren are all, my husband and I are reasonably well off, he retired in 2013, and uh, but since 2008 I decided I don’t wanna work for money. I don’t need to work for money and I’m not gonna work for money, I’m just gonna do what I wanna do, and throw myself into volunteerism. So I’m really busy. I am on 01:18:55.000 --> 01:19:25.000 the board of the indo-American democratic organization, I’m a treasurer there. I’m the head of the Kalapria foundation for Indian performing arts. And I bring artists and grand programs and whatever. And I am on the board of a foundation that runs a school in India, for a rural school for first time 01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:55.000 learners because their parents are all day workers in the mountains and so one of our friends started the school asked me to be on the board so I’m on the board so I go visit the school every year and now they’re gonna expand into a second school. So I’ve been on that board since 2009, so in 2009 the school was 2 years old and had four classes or something. So the 01:19:55.000 --> 01:20:20.000 first group is graduating next year and that should be fun.  01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:01.000 [ML]: That’s so exciting! 01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:24.000 [MS]: it is exciting. So I feel like, you know. There’s a lot of exciting things to do in this world. And one doesn’t have to do it in a transaction based situation, you know, you don’t have to do it because somebody's giving you money. I don’t need the money and I don’t need to be recognized by any money that anybody’s gonna give me. And when I don’t have to take money from somebody then I’m free, so. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:35.000 [ML]: I like that. Very positive, I agree with you, I’m here and I’m not getting paid, and I love doing this! 01:20:35.000 --> 01:20:46.000 [MS]: Yes, it gives you a certain freedom! In some ways we're socialists. [ML]: In a lot of ways 01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:48.000 [MS]: It used to be a bad word you know? 01:20:48.000 --> 01:20:56.000 [ML]: Yeah, well we could talk about that I’m sure for a long time, but can you tell me a little bit about Kalapria? √ 01:20:56.000 --> 01:21:26.000 [MS]: Kalapria. Kalapria was founded in 54 by an Indian woman who used to teach dance. I didn’t know her very well or at all at that time. And then somewhere along the line she decided to turn it into a foundation with an independent board. So different people got invited into the board, so I was invited into the board in 2012, 11, 12. And some series of complications 01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:56.000 occurred, she left the foundation, and suddenly one day I found there were only 3 of us, and they asked me to be, you know, they said, well... You're the only Indian, so why don’t you become the president and well help you to rebuild this organization? So I’ve been the president since early 2015, so this is my second year. And my goal is to try to build it into a robust institution that brings Indian performing 01:21:56.000 --> 01:22:26.000 arts into the mainstream. So do a lot of different types of performance, we do dance, storytelling, so it's fun, but you know I was telling Padma, there’s so many Indian organizations that you can’t really separate out what each person’s mission and vision is. And they overlap, there’s about 250 thousand Indians in the Chicagoland area. 01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:58.000 So you know, and I don’t know how many people participate in these Indian organizations, but there are so many people who bump into each other. And what Padma’s doing with the indo American heritage museum is definitely unique. And some people say oh what you're doing with this organization... I mean, you can always find something unique about what you’re doing. But there’s a lot of fragmentation of the Indian community. 01:22:58.000 --> 01:23:05.000 [ML]: that’s really interesting, could you expand on that? The fragmentation? 01:23:05.000 --> 01:23:35.000 [MS]: Fragmentation, there are multiple political organizations that cater to Indians, but they are not necessarily successful in getting Indians to register to vote or to participate in the voting process. So we do not have an Indian voter block. Like the Jews have. All the evangelicals. And you can say "okay, these are the evangelicals" and you can cater to their needs and they can speak with one voice, and and blah blah blah, right? 01:23:35.000 --> 01:24:05.000 The Indian community is not like that. There’s an indo-American democratic organization, I’m sure there’s a political organization that supports the republicans. There’s several organizations that say they are politically involved- I don’t know all the organizations but, and then the arts as well. Of course there are many art forms and so many each art form is supposed to have their own institutions but 01:24:05.000 --> 01:24:35.000 if you look at the audiences there aren’t that many... You see somewhat more or less the same faces. Idk I think that there is room for rationalization. And the overlap. You know, which organization... Where does history fall? Does it fall in a museum, this is immigration history, right? But where does Indian history fit in? Kids don’t know Indian history! Kids born in America, American Indians born in America don’t know Indian history. 01:24:35.000 --> 01:25:05.000 To me that’s unforgivable, that we have not done our homework. They don’t know Indian history in the way that it’s not based on religion. They know the Indian history that they learn when they go to temple. And the kids that go to temple here are much more religious and much more intensely Indian 01:25:05.000 --> 01:25:30.000 like I told you earlier right, maybe Indian history will die with Padma and me, you know? In the sense of the... Today, it's Hindu. The Indian Hindu is separate from the Indian Muslim. 01:25:32.000 --> 01:25:34.000 [ML]: Do you see that changing anytime soon, or? 01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:43.000 [MS]: don’t know that its n-- I don’t know I didn’t realize that it was happening and it’s not happening. 01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:47.000 [ML]: so when you look back at when you first moved here and you here now do you see a— 01:25:49.000 --> 01:26:00.500 [MS]: I didn’t think that religion was the defining factor. Do you think that religion should define nations and nationalities? 01:26:01.000 --> 01:26:02.000 [ML]: Absolutely not 01:26:02.000 --> 01:26:29.000 [MS]: right! And that is where the question arises because the current Indian government is defining- I don’t know if they are at fault or whether the diaspora is at fault. You know? Who feeds who? Does the Indian diaspora outside India feed Indian political thought? Or is it the other way around? I don’t know with Peru how does it work? 01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:43.000 [ML]: I could ask the same question honestly about Peru, exactly you don’t know-- [MS]: who's driving who. [ML]: Exactly, exactly. But-- 01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:56.000 [MS]: let’s take Israel that is better known example. There’s the Jewish community in the united states drive Israeli policy in Israel or vice versa? 01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:01.000 [ML]: right, and you could argue both ways but it's, you end up with-- 01:27:01.000 --> 01:27:01.000 [MS]: yeah yeah yeah 01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:21.000 [ML]: so I wanna ask you a question about the Indian community here, what do you think it contributes to building Chicago? I know that’s a tough question but-- 01:27:21.000 --> 01:27:51.000 [MS]: I don’t know whether they do it as a community. I think that Indians are individuals and there are certain institutions that have contributed, like the sapri, you know the south Asia policy and research institute, you know they’ve done some research and they’ve done some political moves that have allowed 01:27:51.000 --> 01:28:21.000 for, it’s nice to go to vote and see the instructions in Hindi and Gujarati. I don’t know how the breakdown of the Indian population in this part of the world is but that’s something that’s meaningful. I think the contribution that Indians have made to Chicago has been primarily 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:51.000 because their participation in the professions.so you find very good Indian lawyers, you find very good Indian doctors, you find a lot of very good Indian engineers, in the professions. And the professions are very well populated with a large number of Indians. And Indians have got the position of whether in Chicago or the united states has been the 01:28:51.000 --> 01:29:21.000 highest average earning professional. So if you take all Indians and look at their salaries you probably find the highest, you know what I’m talking about. So that way they have contributed, so probably they are significant taxpayers, but they don’t do anything as a block that’s what I meant by fragmentation, so they don’t do anything as a block. Now, also, when you live in a 01:29:21.000 --> 01:29:51.000 city for as long as we have, we've lived in several parts of Chicago. When my husband and I first moved here he was in dearian--(??). Then we lived in palatine and then we lived in Glenview and he worked in Deerfield and then we lived in Hyde park and now we live here. Our son still lives in Hyde park and our other son lives in Logan square. 01:29:51.000 --> 01:30:20.000 We, I’ve seen Chicago’s complexion change. So, the first temple was built in lamont--(??) And then another temple came up in aurora. Now you have, I’m told, 39 temples in Chicagoland. Ok, and I’m telling you the first temple didn’t come up until the 70s. 01:30:20.000 --> 01:30:21.000 [ML]: They built a lot-- 01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:25.000 I mean, it's exploding. There’s temples every street corner almost in the western suburbs. So that’s a big issue here. So you got all these temples, I don’t know if per capita there’s more temples here than in India, but there’s definitely more temples here than in-- 01:30:37.000 --> 01:30:37.000 [ML]: Really? 01:30:37.000 --> 01:31:07.000 [MS]: Maybe not. Maybe not. But I mean, when I grew up India maybe there weren’t that many temples, but I’m talking about 50 years ago. But today there’s a lot of temples and I’m talking just temples, so then on top of it you have the seekgruguaras--(??), you have the mosques, you have the churches that cater only to the Indian Christian community. So the places of worship have exploded ok? Initially 01:31:07.000 --> 01:31:37.000 in the 70s Devon was the place where Indians went shopping and there was an Indian community there. Now that has shifted to Naperville. And there’s a whole western suburb, there’s a class system there. Idk maybe I’m telling you something that may not be factual but definitely the sense I get because the Western suburbs is more, uh, socioeconomically 01:31:37.000 --> 01:32:07.000 they’re at a higher level than the Devon community. The Devon is more new immigrants and a trading people with small stores and small business whereas the more elite high tech businesses and educated, you know, people with master’s degrees out in the western suburbs. I noticed that there’s a segregation 01:32:07.000 --> 01:32:31.000 where there is more Hindus in the western suburbs and more Muslims in the Devon area. So I mean some of these ideas I’m throwing at you you may have to verify them by just looking into it a little bit. 01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:33.000 [ML]: I’d definitely like to do further research on that! 01:32:33.000 --> 01:33:03.000 [MS]: yes! But this is my impression. Now those guys who started businesses in Devon and made a success with it are constantly moving their business to the western suburbs. Uh, almost by saying that hey, this city has far more middle eastern, more lower middle class that’s become more elite 01:33:03.000 --> 01:33:23.000 there’s that shift happening. I think you should do research on... Just find out how many temples there are. 'Cause the guy who runs the Hindu temple in lemont--(??), last year he told me there are 39. Now, since then maybe it’s like 50, I don’t know. **laughs** 01:33:24.000 --> 01:33:31.000 [ML]: Alright. So what, what do you think is important for future generations to know about Indian Americans? 01:33:32.000 --> 01:34:02.000 Indian Americans, oh gosh. **laughs** Padma and I have had some conversation on this and I’m not sure, okay. I think the history of immigration is an important history for America to, for future Americans to study. Maybe not just Indian Americans but immigration history. 01:34:02.000 --> 01:34:32.000 Just the history of immigration. I think if they taught American history, the history of immigration, separate and focused from white American history or African American history or Asian history or this American history, you know, right now, at least until a few years ago, all that was 01:34:32.000 --> 01:34:50.000 taught was white American history. There’s no uh, native American history at all. I don’t know if you studied any Native American history.  01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:50.000 [ML]: Not really, no. 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:48.000 [MS]: White-American history. European-American history. Whitewashed. 01:34:48.000 --> 01:35:05.000 [ML]: right, and it seems like it’s not until college that you start learning that there are other- that’s not the full truth, or even any of the truth, but it’s very interesting yes. 01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:35.000 [MS]: so I would say that the immigrant history should be an important subject for future Americans and if you take my grandchildren, ok, their mother is from Kazakhstan and she calls herself Russian because there’s no, half the people in this country won’t know what is Kazakhstan. Let’s face it. 01:35:35.000 --> 01:36:05.000 But that’s also part of the fabric. Are they going to be more, are they going to relate more to their Indian American history or are they going to relate more to this small sliver of Kazakhstani American history? I think if somebody put together a history of immigration with all the different, I don’t know if 01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:18.000 you've read this thing, there’s a guy who's become this thing called big history. Have you heard of this? [ML]: it sounds familiar, but I’m not sure. 01:36:22.000 --> 01:36:52.000 [MS]: okay… Big History, uh, is the history of the world, it’s an integrated history of the world. So it’s the evolution of the world so he starts with big bang and weaves into this history, the history of the planet, the creatures, and the man, and the civilizations, and science is woven right 01:36:52.000 --> 01:37:07.000 into it, because you know the elements came to be when the big bang occurred, and you know the evolution of man tells you about biology, so it’s called Big History because it takes everything into it. 01:37:08.000 --> 01:37:10.000 [ML]: I’ll have to read that. Do you know who it’s by? 01:37:10.000 --> [MS]: well, I saw it as a video. It’s the gates foundation founded somebody to do a course on it. And I’ll find it for you. Just give me some time because I gave my only copy to my brother. But it’s an Australian professor who actually did it- integrating all the different pieces. Even the civilizational 01:37:40.000 --> 01:38:10.000 history, everything is on this chronology, of 4 billion years ago to today. So whether you’re finding sciences-it’s all in this chronology. It’s all here. Everything that, whether it’s the making of this glass, to cameras, I mean everything is in there. Obviously he’s not going into that level of detail 01:38:04.000 --> 01:38:17.000 but sometime you can go into that level of detail. So instead of dividing the world into these slivers, you kind of-- 01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:20.000 [ML]: intrigued I can't wait to, I'm going to look it up. Is it a documentary? 01:38:20.000 --> 01:38:50.000 [MS]: it's not a documentary, it’s a lecture series. I’ll look it up for you. I’ll send you an email. It’s called big history. If you just google Big History, you’ll see it. And the gates foundation funded it. Because he found it fascinating. So similarly, I think we have to look at American history. Not as the individual parts, 01:38:50.000 --> 01:39:20.000 but as the whole. And that would be more useful for future generations. And the Indian component, you know, contribution, is a piece of that. Maybe a very important piece, maybe not an important piece. For the last 10 years the African American part has suddenly become pretty important and I sat and saw 5-hour 01:39:20.000 --> 01:39:46.000 series on African Americans in the united states and it just moved me so much because of all the things that they have endured. And the things that we just don’t exist. And then there was one on African Americans in Latin America, which is very different from what happened to them in the North America. So. 01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:56.000 [ML]: I’m very inspired by how much you care about education and teaching the history of immigration, that’s incredible. 01:39:56.000 --> 01:40:26.000 [MS]: I think it’s very important. See, there’s a tendency for Indians to think that we were the first of this and the first of that... I don’t know if other people think that way, you know, oh we're so special. We’re all humans, we're the human race. I don’t know that any one human is more special than the other. We may have had some opportunities, maybe some 01:40:26.000 --> 01:40:39.000 genetic advantages, I don’t know, you know. Genetic advantage that maybe I didn’t get cancer, or I got cancer. I don’t mean white or colored. 01:40:41.000 --> 01:40:49.000 [ML]: so, why don’t we end with this question. Why is Chicago important in your life? 01:40:49.000 --> 01:41:19.000 [MS]: I’ve lived here longer than anywhere else. And uh, I made my family here and I am fortunate that we have two children who were born to us who live here. One of them is a paramedic in the city of Chicago, another one lives in Hyde park and has two children. So I think that you know if there are any roots to be put down anywhere, Chicago would be very high. In India we have roots, I’m a historical Indian, I’m not 01:41:19.000 --> 01:41:49.000 uncomfortable with being an Indian, I’m not uncomfortable doing anything. So I can be whatever I am wherever I am. Chicago’s done a lot for me and I feel very fortunate to have- and if I’d been somewhere else id have taken advantage of that. It’s a very unique city. Today I was in a public school on the south side where Kalapria 01:41:49.000 --> 01:42:19.000 is trying to teach Indian dance, and we're doing an after school program with these 20 kids. Eighth graders. And they don’t know what is India and Indian dance. But I believe that what we’re doing there is getting them out of trouble and into some physical activity, but they’re listening to this music which is from the Punjab, you know, 01:42:19.000 --> 01:42:41.000 and they’re doing Bhangra And Bollywood. So is that, I don’t know what that means but I do believe that I’ve lived in Chicago the longest and I believe that wherever we happened to be it’s our responsibility to contribute to that society. 01:42:34.000 --> 01:42:41.000 to be it's our responsibility to contribute to that Society 01:42:43.000 --> 01:42:46.000 [ML]: thank you so much, is there anything else you would like to add? 01:42:46.000 --> 01:42:58.900 [MS]: well, if you feel like calling me up and asking me questions... Tell me about you. You haven’t told me anything about you!